Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solo · 09-08-2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

The interpolation would have had to be early for this very reason, since the appearances in Matthew and Luke (and Acts) are to the eleven. It is unlikely this passage would have been composed by someone familiar with the later synoptics, as it aims at harmonizing traditions.

My take on it is that it comes from a pro-Petrine community and is a first attempt to discredit Mark by showing that Paul was not the first who proclaimed Jesus' resurrection - which was the intent behind the women running away from the empty tomb in Mk 16:8 without telling anything to anyone.

Best,
Jiri

Perhaps, though my take is somewhat different.

I view this as part of the larger redactional exercise occuring towards the later half of the 2nd century, the time when I believe Luke/Acts was completed, along with the pastorals and the Paulines were made safe for catholic consumption. A whole scale re-packaging of the apostle of the heretics.

In other words, at the time of the formation of the orthodox canon.

Somewhere between Polycarp and Ireneus, though nearer to Ireneaus, would be my guess.

Although, I do agree that one of Mark's purposes was to discredit supposed historical witness.

Ok for now.

IIUC, there is no external witness to the Judas story before Irenaeus. It is possible but not that likely IMO that the story of Judas (as a betrayer - not as an instrument of God's will that is to be pitied as he was for Mark) was written into Matthew/Luke later as a reaction to the gospel of Judas.

Best,
Jiri

TedM · 09-08-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

IIUC, there is no external witness to the Judas story before Irenaeus. It is possible but not that likely IMO that the story of Judas (as a betrayer - not as an instrument of God's will that is to be pitied as he was for Mark) was written into Matthew/Luke later as a reaction to the gospel of Judas.

Best,
Jiri

Papias mentioned Judas negatively--with some language in common with Acts.
Last I saw he wrote in 100-130 period

archibald · 09-08-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

He never says he was the first, orthodox teachings says he wasn't the first, and the clear implication from Galatians is that he wasn't the first.

He said he "planted" at Corinth. But, I accept we all interpret the text according to our wits.

I read this as the first at Corinth. Isn't that what it actually says?

Oh yeah. I forgot, if Solo finds a phrase somewhere, he applies it throughout. Nobody actually died in those days. Everyone was just figuratively dead. Lol.

andrewcriddle · 09-08-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I'm not sure that any objective historian has ever suggested that over 100,000 people died in the Dresden bombing.

The very high figures seem to come from groups and individuals with a polemical agenda.

Andrew Criddle

Have you got that the right way around? Do you mean that you think early Christian proselytizers were more like objective historians rather than being people from groups with a polemical agenda?

My point is that the very high casualty figures for Dresden seem to have been deliberately put forward to support a particular agenda.

In theory, the more than 500 witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15 could have originated in the same way, but it is unclear what agenda required so high a figure.

Andrew Criddle

archibald · 09-08-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

My point is that the very high casualty figures for Dresden seem to have been deliberately put forward to support a particular agenda.

In theory, the more than 500 witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15 could have originated in the same way, but it is unclear what agenda required so high a figure.

Andrew Criddle

Over-egging one's polemic? Listening to rumour? I'm not sure if we can rule out deliberately supporting an agenda either, arguably a fanatically supported one.

Yes, I do agree though. It is unclear as to where the 500 figure came from.

As someone else has pointed out, if it was done post-gospels, it wouldn't have done anything to harmonize anything.

Solo · 09-08-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

As I told you, I am done with that one. I figured you are either pulling my leg, or you are too thick. In either case, it would be a useless conversation from my point of view. :wave:

Best,
Jiri

That's a pity. You've used quite a repertoire of impressive rational statements thus far (a disparaging idiom about silk patches, comparisons to the level of understanding of children, a poor attempt at ethnic humour, a not-so-veiled ad hom about being thick.....) and that only leaves you, perhaps, with three further options, namely, questioning peoples' legitimate parentage...or.....er.......actually answering questions convincingly. Or not answering them convincingly*.

Now, which is it to be?

:moonie:

Jiri

archibald · 09-08-2011, 02:14 PM

Thanks Jiri, you did it! You brought your 15-year-old child on the thread!

Solo · 09-08-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

IIUC, there is no external witness to the Judas story before Irenaeus. It is possible but not that likely IMO that the story of Judas (as a betrayer - not as an instrument of God's will that is to be pitied as he was for Mark) was written into Matthew/Luke later as a reaction to the gospel of Judas.

Best,
Jiri

Papias mentioned Judas negatively--with some language in common with Acts.
Last I saw he wrote in 100-130 period

We have nothing directly from Papias. The story of Judas' death ascribed to Papias comes through Apollinaris of Laodicea who lived in the fourth century.

Jiri

Iskander · 09-08-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Thanks Jiri, you did it! You brought your 15-year-old child on the thread!

The time has come, my little friends, to talk of other things / Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings / And why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wigs / Calloo, Callay, come run away / With the cabbages and kings.

archibald · 09-08-2011, 02:31 PM

Guys, have a nice weekend. I'm going to have to ease back on how much time I'm spending online, and on this issue alone. It's frighteningly addictive, and my wife and kids are starting to give me serious gip, and my work is suffering. :]

I'll try to respond to any posts, if anyone addresses me. Just remember what Arnie famously said in, 'The Terminator'.

Ciao for now. Gawdd bless you all, and all who sail in you.

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09-08-2011, 02:14 PM	#417
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	Thanks Jiri, you did it! You brought your 15-year-old child on the thread!

09-08-2011, 02:31 PM	#420
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	Guys, have a nice weekend. I'm going to have to ease back on how much time I'm spending online, and on this issue alone. It's frighteningly addictive, and my wife and kids are starting to give me serious gip, and my work is suffering. :] I'll try to respond to any posts, if anyone addresses me. Just remember what Arnie famously said in, 'The Terminator'. Ciao for now. Gawdd bless you all, and all who sail in you.

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