Freethought & Rationalism Archive

itsamysteryhuh · 01-25-2008, 10:27 AM

I would like the "truly educated" to give responses for the post at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...84#post5113884, rather than providing yet another closed-thread copout. Thanks. :thumbs:

spin · 01-25-2008, 10:36 AM

As I wrote in the previous thread:

Quote:

From my previous post in this thread:

Just think for a few moments: a word cannot mean two things at the same time indiscriminantly. No-one would ever know what another means.

In real life there is a favored meaning and secondary meanings. When I use the word "run" to you, you will think of a person moving quickly on foot; but if I say "run that past me again", you'd then get a different idea of "run". Or "go out and play", but "go out and play that sonata". The context helps differentiate secondary meanings, while you don't need a context for the primary meaning.

The word "burn" has a primary sense, which causes you to think of fire. The other metaphorical sense require context to clarify.

Can you read the above carefully and respond to it. If you can't I'll assume that you are as serious as you were previously and advocate the closure of this thread as well.

spin

Toto · 01-25-2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

I'm sure there's tons more ways to find different meanings for flames, fire, and thirst in all kinds of contexts, but that isn't the point, is it? You yourself brought up the question of what these words meant to the people back then, right?

Of course that's one of the points, but there's also the point of many words having several possible definitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Luke 16:24

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...31;&version=9;

His problem is physical. He wants water for his tongue, because he is "tormented in this flame." He's not haunted by guilt, he doesn't feel oppression, all he wants is a drop of water.

If you think there is a good reason why people did not understand it as physical suffering, it would be great to hear it now.

If you look at the verse before (verse 23) at the word "torments" (a noun), then look at the possible definitions of "torments," you find it could mean either 1). great physical pain or mental anguish or 2). A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain. Just look up the possible definitions available for other words that haven't been mentioned yet as well, including "cool" and "tongue." Also compare the "comfort" of Lazarus to the (apparent) lack of comfort the rich man is experiencing.

However, please take into consideration that this would all be too early for what is said to take place at the judgement (at Gehenna, the lake of fire).

...

Is water helpful to metaphorical flames?

Roger Pearse · 01-25-2008, 12:17 PM

Generally when people decide that a thread is dead, it is dead. Leave it alone.

spin · 01-25-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Generally when people decide that a thread is dead, it is dead. Leave it alone.

Just giving itsamysteryhuh the opportunity to say something more tangible.

spin

itsamysteryhuh · 01-25-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysteryhuh

Of course that's one of the points, but there's also the point of many words having several possible definitions.

If you look at the verse before (verse 23) at the word "torments" (a noun), then look at the possible definitions of "torments," you find it could mean either 1). great physical pain or mental anguish or 2). A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain. Just look up the possible definitions available for other words that haven't been mentioned yet as well, including "cool" and "tongue." Also compare the "comfort" of Lazarus to the (apparent) lack of comfort the rich man is experiencing.

However, please take into consideration that this would all be too early for what is said to take place at the judgement (at Gehenna, the lake of fire).

...

Is water helpful to metaphorical flames?

Well, I wouldn't think a drop of water on the tip of one's finger would be helpful for any "flames" that were actually from fire. Of course, being educated, we know that the phrase "cool my tongue" is a reference to an earlier verse from the Old Testament, Zechariah 14:12, which speaks of eyes rotting, tongues rotting, etc. I think we all know what the body is primarily made up of, don't we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Just think for a few moments: a word cannot mean two things at the same time indiscriminantly. No-one would ever know what another means.

In real life there is a favored meaning and secondary meanings. When I use the word "run" to you, you will think of a person moving quickly on foot; but if I say "run that past me again", you'd then get a different idea of "run". Or "go out and play", but "go out and play that sonata". The context helps differentiate secondary meanings, while you don't need a context for the primary meaning.
The word "burn" has a primary sense, which causes you to think of fire. The other metaphorical sense require context to clarify.

But you are ignoring the other possible definitions of the words "torments" (a noun) and "tormented" (a participle adjective), and are only assuming it is the primary definition for each one. This doesn't even include words such as "cool," "fire," and "water" from these verses. Sure, torments" and "tormented" could be a reference to physical pain (as you are stating), but they could also be something different (ie, mental anguish, extreme sadness knowing you're not granted eternal life in a pain-free place, the affliction of being in a place without God, etc.).

spin · 01-25-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Is water helpful to metaphorical flames?

Well, I wouldn't think a drop of water on the tip of one's finger would be helpful for any "flames" that were actually from fire. Of course, being educated, we know that the phrase "cool my tongue" is a reference to an earlier verse from the Old Testament, Zechariah 14:12, which speaks of eyes rotting, tongues rotting, etc. I think we all know what the body is primarily made up of, don't we?

As I pointed out you take first torment to be metaphorical, which forces you to take flames to be metaphorical, which forces you to take the parched tongue to be metaphorical, which ultimately leads you to take the water to be metaphorical: in short you rewrite the whole verse without any justification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Just think for a few moments: a word cannot mean two things at the same time indiscriminantly. No-one would ever know what another means.

In real life there is a favored meaning and secondary meanings. When I use the word "run" to you, you will think of a person moving quickly on foot; but if I say "run that past me again", you'd then get a different idea of "run". Or "go out and play", but "go out and play that sonata". The context helps differentiate secondary meanings, while you don't need a context for the primary meaning.
The word "burn" has a primary sense, which causes you to think of fire. The other metaphorical sense require context to clarify.

But you are ignoring the other possible definitions of the words "torments" (a noun) and "tormented" (a participle adjective), and are only assuming it is the primary definition for each one.

You should check the Greek rather than waste your energies vainly on irrelevances. Your musings about English are worthless to the conversation.

The noun basanos in 16:23, "in torments", deals specifically with torture (see Liddell & Scott entry III). This is utterly no help to you, as I have shown with the verb odunaw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

This doesn't even include words such as "cool," "fire," and "water" from these verses. Sure, torments" and "tormented" could be a reference to physical pain (as you are stating), but they could also be something different (ie, mental anguish, extreme sadness knowing you're not granted eternal life in a pain-free place, the affliction of being in a place without God, etc.).

You have claimed this many many times without showing any evidence of this from the Greek sources. Obviously you can't. You distort the text for no textual reason. All the words you need to metaphorize have nice physical significances that work well together in this passage. All your examples of metaphor make it clear from the context that you should read them as metaphor. Where is your context here?

Why not read it for what it actually says, rather than continue your efforts at eisegesis?

spin

makerowner · 01-25-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Why not read it for what it actually says, rather than continue your efforts at eisegesis?

spin

Because then it doesn't fit his church's doctrines.

Doug Shaver · 01-26-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

I would like the "truly educated" to give responses for the post . . . rather than providing yet another closed-thread copout.

Why are you so obsessed with convincing a bunch of atheists that your interpretation of hell is the correct one?

itsamysteryhuh · 01-26-2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The noun basanos in 16:23, "in torments", deals specifically with torture (see Liddell & Scott entry III).

You seemed to have skipped right down to entry III without any regard for the other entries (re: trial, test, etc.).

Makerowner, I don't have or belong to a church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Why are you so obsessed with convincing a bunch of atheists that your interpretation of hell is the correct one?

This was already answered in the other thread. Atheists often use the argument "Why would I believe in a God who would send people to hell" (referencing "hell" as a place of burning torment)... but "hell" (see Sheol and Hades) is the grave.

01-25-2008, 10:27 AM	#1
itsamysteryhuh Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,023	Luke revisited I would like the "truly educated" to give responses for the post at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthr...84#post5113884, rather than providing yet another closed-thread copout. Thanks. :thumbs:

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01-25-2008, 12:17 PM	#4
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Generally when people decide that a thread is dead, it is dead. Leave it alone.

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