Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-16-2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

aa5874, do you ever visualize your self as a lot like an urban street preacher, except you are on the Internet, or is it just me?

I am presenting the abundance of evidence to show that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

I have used sources of antiquity not guesswork.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

It is clear and without contradiction that Matthew 1.18 can be found in the Canon. There is no need to guess. Jesus is described as the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God and a Virgin.

It is clear and without doubt that Galatians 1.1 can be found in the Canon.There is no need to guess. A Pauline writer claimed he was not the Apostle of a man but of Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead.

It is clear and established that there is a 14th chapter of Acts where Paul and Barnabas refused to be worshiped as Gods. There is no need to guess.

It is clear and can be found in "First Apology" where a writer claimed the Devil put forward men who call themselves Gods.

It is clear that Jesus Christ in and outside the Canon was known, believed or intended to be a God.

It is therefore clear that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. I don't have to guess. It is in black and white from sources of antiquity.

ApostateAbe · 02-16-2010, 09:13 PM

Should I take that as a "Yes" then or what?

aa5874 · 02-18-2010, 11:37 PM

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

The more I examine the NT and Church writings it becomes increasingly clear that an HJ would not be worshiped as a God by Jesus believers if he was known, believed or intended to be just a man.

Jesus believers were adamant that Jesus was a God and that they do not worship men as Gods.

Jesus believers appear not to suffer from mass amnesia. They maintained for hundreds of years that Jesus was a God and that they would not worship men as Gods.

This is a writing under the name Ambrose where this author claimed Jesus Christ was VERY GOD.

"Exposition of the Christian Faith" 17

Quote:

..Chapter 17.

That Christ is very God is proved from the fact that He is God's own Son, also from His having been begotten and having come forth from God, and further, from the unity of will and operation subsisting in Father and Son.

The witness of the apostles and of the centurion— which St. Ambrose sets over against the Arian teaching— is adduced, together with that of Isaiah and St. John.

108. Hence it is that Christ is not only God, but very God indeed— very God of very God, insomuch that He Himself is the Truth.........

Jesus Christ was very God of very God.

Now, look again at Ambrose in the "Exposition of the Christian Faith" 16

Quote:

103. But in any case let our private judgment pass: let us enquire of Paul, who, filled with the Spirit of God, and so foreseeing these questionings, has given sentence against pagans in general and Arians in particular, saying that they were by God's judgment condemned, who served the creature rather than the Creator.

Thus, in fact, you may read: "God gave them over to the lusts of their own heart, that they might one with another dishonour their bodies, they who changed God's truth into a lie, and worshipped and served the thing created rather than the Creator, Who is God, blessed for ever." (Romans 1:24-25)

104. Thus Paul forbids me to worship a creature, and admonishes me of my duty to serve Christ.

It follows, then, that Christ is not a created being.

The Apostle calls himself "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ," (Romans 1:1) and this good servant, who acknowledges his Lord, will likewise have us not worship that which is created.

How, then, could he have been himself a servant of Christ, if he thought that Christ was a created person?

Let these heretics, then, cease either to worship Him Whom they call a created being, or to call Him a creature, Whom they feign to worship, lest under colour of being worshippers they fall into worse impiety.

For a domestic is worse than a foreign foe, and that these men should use the Name of Christ to Christ's dishonour increases their guilt......

See http://www.newadvent.org

The writer called Ambrose even claimed Paul in his writings forbade him to worship a created being.

The abundance of evidence supports a mythological Jesus Christ. Jesus was without doubt regarded as a God by the Church writers.

Now Gods are MYTHOLOGICAL entities whether or not people believe they existed.

And Jesus was described as VERY GOD of VERY GOD, the very MYTH of MYTH.

If there was an actual HJ there would be no Gospel story since neither Jews or Jesus believers worshiped men as God.

The HJ is a Catch 22. If Jesus was just a man, the authors NT and Church writers fundamentally wrote fiction about Jesus. If Jesus did not exist at all, the same applies, the authors of the NT and Church writers also wrote total fiction about Jesus.

In effect, the HJ is not very rational after examining the NT and Church writings.

Loomis · 02-19-2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

108. Hence it is that Christ is not only God, but very God indeed— very God of very God, insomuch that He Himself is the Truth.........

Does that look like the words of someone who is genuinely interested in conveying useful information?

The author was being a dick.

Where are the non-dicks who can attest to a historical Jesus?

They are all dicks. They all say stupid/ coy absurd nonsense.

Clivedurdle · 02-19-2010, 12:04 AM

BBC Radio 4 has a god spot weekday mornings, this morning Richard Harries quoted 1 John on the coming of Christ.

What is this assumption of a second coming? What do the NT epistles actually say?

It all makes a lot more sense as an evolving syncretic set of ideas developing over a few centuries and being eventually formalised in a credal Christ with an end of the world plot.

A human at the base is not only senseless but unnecessary.

Loomis · 02-19-2010, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

BBC Radio 4 has a god spot weekday mornings, this morning Richard Harries quoted 1 John on the coming of Christ.

What is this assumption of a second coming? What do the NT epistles actually say?

It all makes a lot more sense as an evolving syncretic set of ideas developing over a few centuries and being eventually formalised in a credal Christ with an end of the world plot.

A human at the base is not only senseless but unnecessary.

If Jesus were a real person who actually existed, then he would tend to inhibit that sort of shit. Because the various authors who made this stuff up would be worried that they would get qwned.

mountainman · 02-19-2010, 01:43 AM

Hi aa5874,

In the following writings you are citing Ambrose (340-397 CE) , born after and writing after Nicaea, and who is attempting to resolve the "nuances" of the Arian controversy. Many of the textual dancing and discussion and issues and verbage draws as its source the key five sophisms of Arius, which were echoed over the 4th century in various combinations, permutations etc.

The figure of Arius is a VERY VERY heretical figure.
The orthodox church writers demonized Arius.
I think Arius told Constantine that Jesus was fabricated.
Then it was on for young and old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

The more I examine the NT and Church writings it becomes increasingly clear that an HJ would not be worshiped as a God by Jesus believers if he was known, believed or intended to be just a man.

Jesus believers were adamant that Jesus was a God and that they do not worship men as Gods.

Jesus believers appear not to suffer from mass amnesia. They maintained for hundreds of years that Jesus was a God and that they would not worship men as Gods.

This is a writing under the name Ambrose where this author claimed Jesus Christ was VERY GOD.

"Exposition of the Christian Faith" 17

Quote:

..Chapter 17.

That Christ is very God is proved from the fact that He is God's own Son, also from His having been begotten and having come forth from God, and further, from the unity of will and operation subsisting in Father and Son.

The witness of the apostles and of the centurion— which St. Ambrose sets over against the Arian teaching— is adduced, together with that of Isaiah and St. John.

108. Hence it is that Christ is not only God, but very God indeed— very God of very God, insomuch that He Himself is the Truth.........

Jesus Christ was very God of very God.

Now, look again at Ambrose in the "Exposition of the Christian Faith" 16

Quote:

103. But in any case let our private judgment pass: let us enquire of Paul, who, filled with the Spirit of God, and so foreseeing these questionings, has given sentence against pagans in general and Arians in particular, saying that they were by God's judgment condemned, who served the creature rather than the Creator.

Thus, in fact, you may read: "God gave them over to the lusts of their own heart, that they might one with another dishonour their bodies, they who changed God's truth into a lie, and worshipped and served the thing created rather than the Creator, Who is God, blessed for ever." (Romans 1:24-25)

104. Thus Paul forbids me to worship a creature, and admonishes me of my duty to serve Christ.

It follows, then, that Christ is not a created being.

The Apostle calls himself "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ," (Romans 1:1) and this good servant, who acknowledges his Lord, will likewise have us not worship that which is created.

How, then, could he have been himself a servant of Christ, if he thought that Christ was a created person?

Let these heretics, then, cease either to worship Him Whom they call a created being, or to call Him a creature, Whom they feign to worship, lest under colour of being worshippers they fall into worse impiety.

For a domestic is worse than a foreign foe, and that these men should use the Name of Christ to Christ's dishonour increases their guilt......

See http://www.newadvent.org

The writer called Ambrose even claimed Paul in his writings forbade him to worship a created being.

The abundance of evidence supports a mythological Jesus Christ. Jesus was without doubt regarded as a God by the Church writers.

Now Gods are MYTHOLOGICAL entities whether or not people believe they existed.

And Jesus was described as VERY GOD of VERY GOD, the very MYTH of MYTH.

If there was an actual HJ there would be no Gospel story since neither Jews or Jesus believers worshiped men as God.

The HJ is a Catch 22. If Jesus was just a man, the authors NT and Church writers fundamentally wrote fiction about Jesus. If Jesus did not exist at all, the same applies, the authors of the NT and Church writers also wrote total fiction about Jesus.

In effect, the HJ is not very rational after examining the NT and Church writings.

aa5874 · 02-19-2010, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

108. Hence it is that Christ is not only God, but very God indeed— very God of very God, insomuch that He Himself is the Truth.........

Does that look like the words of someone who is genuinely interested in conveying useful information?

The author was being a dick.

Where are the non-dicks who can attest to a historical Jesus?

They are all dicks. They all say stupid/ coy absurd nonsense.

But, it must be noted that the writer under the name Ambrose did make mention of Paul.

Quote:

104. Thus Paul forbids me to worship a creature, and admonishes me of my duty to serve Christ.

It follows, then, that Christ is not a created being....

Now, the point is that for hundreds of years Jesus believers did not consider Jesus to be a man born through normal sexual reproduction.

Jesus believers had regarded or wanted people to regard Jesus as a God, the Creator, who at some later time took on the flesh of Man through the Holy Ghost and a Virgin.

The information from the writer called Ambrose is consistent and compatible with Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.34-35, John 1 and Galatians where Jesus was described as the offspring of the Holy Ghost and Creator who was God and was raised from the dead.

Jesus believers believed or wanted people to believe in Gods, entities considered mythological.

arnoldo · 02-20-2010, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

That's why He was crucified, because He was judged to be a man and not a G-d.

So, you are esentially claiming that virtually everything about Jesus are lies and that his disciples continued the practice of lying about their master and propagated that Jesus was a God knowing ful well he was judged to be a man.

Jesus was not the offspring of the Holy Ghost, was not tempted on the pinnacle of the Temple by the Devil, did not instantly heal incurable diseases, did not destroy a plant by cursing it, did not walk on water, did not transfigure, resurrect and ascend through the clouds.

Jesus was executed judged to be a liar.
.

Plenty of innocent people have been executed, and the Gospels state that this sin offering was acceptable to G-d because He was without sin.

aa5874 · 02-20-2010, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, you are esentially claiming that virtually everything about Jesus are lies and that his disciples continued the practice of lying about their master and propagated that Jesus was a God knowing ful well he was judged to be a man.

Jesus was not the offspring of the Holy Ghost, was not tempted on the pinnacle of the Temple by the Devil, did not instantly heal incurable diseases, did not destroy a plant by cursing it, did not walk on water, did not transfigure, resurrect and ascend through the clouds.

Jesus was executed judged to be a liar.
.

Plenty of innocent people have been executed, and the Gospels state that this sin offering was acceptable to G-d because He was without sin.

A sinless man is a MYTH.

Even the authors of the Jesus stories wrote that not even their Jesus was good or considered himself good.

Mt 19:17 -

Quote:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But, Jesus must have been just a story because another author claimed Jesus said these words.

Joh 10:30 -

Quote:

I and my Father are one.

The HJ theory is directly based on Amnesia.

The author of gJohn reminded the author of gMatthew that Jesus was equal to God.

It must not be forgotten. The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. Jesus and his Father were ONE, the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God, of the same MYTHOLOGICAL family.

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02-16-2010, 09:13 PM	#662
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Should I take that as a "Yes" then or what?

02-19-2010, 12:04 AM	#665
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	BBC Radio 4 has a god spot weekday mornings, this morning Richard Harries quoted 1 John on the coming of Christ. What is this assumption of a second coming? What do the NT epistles actually say? It all makes a lot more sense as an evolving syncretic set of ideas developing over a few centuries and being eventually formalised in a credal Christ with an end of the world plot. A human at the base is not only senseless but unnecessary.

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