Ben C Smith

No, late thirties, IIRC.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

Is this the war you are refering to?

Antiquities of the Jews - Book 18, Chapter 5, section 1
I have not read either Theissen or Crossley, but if the passage above is what you are referring to, it seems to be a singularly puny reason for the writing of Mark chapter 13. I just don't see the connections. What am I missing?

Could you point out a few reasons to justify further investigation?

Thanks,
Jake

jjramsey

This is also easily explicable as Jesus deliberately emulating OT imagery, which is something that Josephus shows messianic claimants like Theudas and the Samaritan prophet doing.

Now you are just stretching.

Not only are these parallels vague, but the last one is particularly problematic since the "abomination standing in temple" is in Daniel a reference to Antiochus Epiphanes' desecration of the Second Temple, the imagery of which is recycled to predict the destruction of the Temple.

These parallels make more sense, but as I said before, they are at least as likely to be Mark mixing in his own knowledge with Jesus' more general warning about his messengers being persecuted for their message.

Now you are back to stretched parallels.

Crucifixion, as far as I can tell, isn't in Mark 13 at all, let alone after the Abomination of the Desolation.

This can also be seen as Mark coloring (or if you prefer, distorting) Jesus' words with foreshadowing, not just a sign of wholesale fiction.

My methodological justification is straightforward. The mythicist position creates more problems that it solves: a mythical Jesus who apparently has flesh-and-blood brothers, a mythical messiah who is a forced fit to the OT prophecies, signs of rationalizations of Jesus' failure, or the preaching of the oxymoron of a crucified messiah without a strong motivation to do so. And that is not an exhaustive list.

That mythicists commonly resort to strained parallels or arguments from silence also does not inspire my confidence.

If mythicist arguments made all the facts fall neatly into place, and made longstanding difficulties go away, then the "historical core" types would be practically refuted. As it stands, I have yet to see anything resembling that kind of elegance from mythicists.

jakejonesiv

Zindler has argued that Antiquities Book 18:5, 2 is a Christian interpolation stimulated in this spot due to Herod writing to Tiberius writing to Vitellius to send him Aretas' head.

If you read straight from 5,1 to 5,3 it runs as smooth as silk. The JBAp stuff is an interuption in the flow:

So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head. This was the charge that Tiberius gave to the president of Syria. So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men; he also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those kingdoms which were under the Romans, and made haste for Petra, and came to Ptolemais.

Can you spot above where the Christian stuck the alleged JBAP interpolation?

Jake

jakejonesiv

Do you think Jesus got himself crucified to emulate Psalm 22:16 LXX?

Jake Jones

Chris Weimer

I'd personally doubt it. I think the crucifiction was what initially led the others to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and I don't think it had anything to do with Psalm 22. To begin with, Psalm 22 isn't messianic, but one cannot help but notice a self-proclaimed prophet crucified on the Eve of Passover. Such an event, in my opinion, began the whole operation.

jakejonesiv

Why would being crucified lead anyone to believe the person crucified was the Messiah, unless there was some "OT" basis?

If so, and it was not Psalm 22, then what?

Jake Jones

jakejonesiv

Chris,

One more question, please.

I haven't noticed that the gospels ever seemed to limit themselves to passages that are messianic. Why would that criteria only apply to Psalm 22, and not the other historicized prophecies?

Thanks!
Jake

Chris Weimer

The religious symbolism of sacrificing the Lamb for Passover, the role which Jesus fulfilled when crucified.

Chris Weimer

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, but let me say that Christianity predated the gospels, so whatever the gospels said isn't necessarily how the earliest Christians thought.