Vorkosigan

I said it on JM, not here. I've been posting back in there lately. Doherty is there at the moment

BTW, I totally agree with your comments about Thompson. Footnotes and references would be a first.

Ted Hoffman

Celsus, this is what I was referring to:
But upon rereading, I realize that you believe that the Biblical David never existed. My apologies.

The Biblical empire that overrun the Philistines - from Goliath etc. Thats the one Lemche was referring to - I believe.

Celsus

Really? I didn't realise Lemche subscribed to an overrunning of the Philistines by a mysterious empire (Davidic or not). Are you sure about this?

Joel

Lavis Knight

Sorry for my ignorance, however could anyone direct me to somewhere. In which they talk about the evidence against the empire written in the bible? As i remember by the time Solomon came around they had many other kingdoms doing trade with them and paying tribute as well.

Not to mention the division of the empire after Solomons death.. are we saying that it was all made up? All the conquests of David and the empire he left Solomon all fabricated?

-Lavis

Celsus

I've written some stuff that you may find useful in my introduction to archaeology 4. The problem is that unlike other kingdoms all over the place, we have no records of Solomon or David, nor even evidence of a centralised empire in either Israel or Judah. We do know that Samaria was sacked in 722/1 BCE, and Jerusalem fell in 587/6 BCE, and we do have extent mention of some of the Israelite kings, but nothing of David, Solomon, or their immediate successors. In fact, we can't even tell whether these kingdoms were "Hebrew" or "Israelite" until much later (what little we have of their language, for instance, was not noticeably different from Phoenician in the 10th century).

The absence of any significant inscriptions and records, and the tiny size of Jerusalem from the Solomonic period lead one to express grave doubts about any of the historicity of the biblical accounts, inasmuch as they describe the grandeur of this empire that leaves no traces and which other kingdoms seem to run through at will. Interestingly, Giovanni Garbini has discovered a seal purportedly of an Amorite king in the 7th century reigning in Jerusalem, which if confirmed would put a serious damper on hopes that the biblical accounts of this period will be corroborated (and these hopes have been collapsing since the 1970s).

Joel

Kosh

The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
- Ambassador Kosh, "Babylon V"

andrewcriddle

The Only online reference I can find is for a 2003 conference
http://www.orientalisti.net/trends.htm
Has the reading of the seal been published yet ?

As the summary stands it is not clear how far the reading of the seal itself points unambiguously to Hanan’el as being a ruler in Jerusalem, or whether Garbini is interpreting an ambiguous reading in the light of biblical data such as the references to a 'tower of Hananeel' in Nehemiah Jeremiah and Zechariah.

Andrew Criddle

Ted Hoffman

He uses the word 'empire'. I thought whats in the bible (fiction as it is) is basically a kingdom with considerable millitary might and wealth - hence 'empire'?

Celsus

Jacob, it would help if you gave the actual quote. As far as I'm concerned, the Philistines were most probably "overrun" by the Assyrian "empire" (though not completely destroyed) and then finally disappeared under the Babylonians. Now there are destruction layers in the early tenth century from Beth-shan, Megiddo, and Tell Abu-Hawan which coincides with destructions of the Philistine/Sea Peoples cities of Dor, Ekron, Tell Qasile, and Timnah and subsequent retreat of the Philistines (who peaked in the 11th century). If that is what he means, I don't see where "empire" comes into it. Maximalists, of course, decide it must be David who did all this.

Andrew, I got that information from exactly the same source. I've been meaning to write to Regalzi to ask, but haven't got round to it...

Joel

Chris Weimer

I figured the Apiru did it.