Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-30-2012, 09:50 PM

I have a theory and need evidence for or against the following proposition. I found this in a book:

Quote:

One would like to think the presentation happened on December 25, natalis inuicti, the day of the birth of Horus (Harpocrates). http://books.google.com/books?id=sJT...ed=0CD0Q6AEwAg

Toto · 07-01-2012, 12:14 AM

The book (I don't get much of a google preview):

Isis and Sarapis in the Roman World (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Sarolta A. Takács

This seems to be one of those generally acknowledged facts. What sort of evidence are you looking for?

Christmas celebrations - right or wrong?

Quote:

Interestingly, Eusebius in the 300s condemned that some women transferred the worship of Ceres (aka Isis aka Cybele) to the worship of Mary.[114] Later, the Lady-Day aka the Feast of Annunciation, March 25th, was a date instituted by the Roman Catholic Church obviously made to coincide with the date dedicated to Cybele (Isis), the “mother of the gods.”[115] The Egyptians on this date “celebrated the Union of Isis and Osiris,” and nine months later (on December 25th) celebrated the birthday of Harpocrates, which means “the sun in winter.”

Isis worship

Quote:

Writing in the late 1st and early 2nd centuries CE, Plutarch tells us that Harpocrates (from Hor-pa-khered, Horus the Child) is born on the winter solstice (I quote it here at length because I like the lead-in):

Thus we shall attack the many boring people who find pleasure in associating the activities of these gods with the seasonal changes of the atmosphere or with the growths, sowing, and plowing of crops, and who say that Osiris is being buried when the corn is sown and hidden in the earth, and that he lives again and reappears when it begins to sprout. For this reason it is said that Isis, when she was aware of her being pregnant, put on a protective amulet on the sixth day of Phaophi, and at the winter solstice gave birth to Harpocrates, imperfect and prematurely born, amid plants that burgeoned and sprouted before their season . . . and they are said to celebrate the days of her confinement after the spring equinox. (Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris, 65B-c)

Toto · 07-01-2012, 12:25 AM

There's also Acharya S's Christ in Egypt, which has a google preview - see p. 91 ff.

I've never actually heard anyone deny this - but Acharya S does mention some that do. Evidently Harpcrates could represent the sun that was born every day (at sunrise.)

stephan huller · 07-01-2012, 12:55 AM

I didn't think the winter solstice was that late. I need December 25th specifically associated with Horus or Harpocrates.

stephan huller · 07-01-2012, 12:09 PM

i am not going to attack the messenger. i think this has something to do with the name harpocratians and the mythicist debate. what's the strongest piece of evidence

Toto · 07-01-2012, 12:48 PM

There seems to be a general confusion between the Solstice and December 25.

This comment on the wikipedia talk page for Sol Invictus might clarify:

Quote:

In the Roman period the winter solstice was on 21st December as it is now. For roughly three days prior to, and three days after the solstice the movement of the rise of the sun is imperceptible. Dec 25th is the first day on which the sunrise can be seen to have moved North form its six days standstill. This is why the sun is "victorious" over the darkness. Perhaps there should be a paragraph offering some clarity about this, since it seems integral to the celebration of Sol Invictus. I'm undoing the change because its misleading to say the solstice was on the 25th Dec. Mrpearcee (talk) 06:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

stephan huller · 07-01-2012, 01:11 PM

very useful clarification. what i am thinking is that the harpocratians were so called by "mythicist" Christians for lack of a better term because of their belief that jesus was born on 25 December already 161 - 169 CE (when Celsus reports the sect later corrupted as "Carpocratians" by the addition to hegessipus's Outlines about the Roman church succession where Marcellina the Carpocratian is introduced c 180 CE. thanks

stephan huller · 07-01-2012, 03:46 PM

i wonder if this same principle explains the after three day resurrection in relation to the passover

Toto · 07-01-2012, 04:20 PM

The astrotheologists try to explain the three days in the tomb using this principle - the sun appears to be stuck in the lowest position for three days. But I don't see a connection to the Passover.

stephan huller · 07-01-2012, 06:41 PM

yes it doesnt make sense. the first maybe. not the fourteenth

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07-01-2012, 12:25 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There's also Acharya S's Christ in Egypt, which has a google preview - see p. 91 ff. I've never actually heard anyone deny this - but Acharya S does mention some that do. Evidently Harpcrates could represent the sun that was born every day (at sunrise.)

07-01-2012, 12:55 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I didn't think the winter solstice was that late. I need December 25th specifically associated with Horus or Harpocrates.

07-01-2012, 12:09 PM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	i am not going to attack the messenger. i think this has something to do with the name harpocratians and the mythicist debate. what's the strongest piece of evidence

07-01-2012, 01:11 PM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	very useful clarification. what i am thinking is that the harpocratians were so called by "mythicist" Christians for lack of a better term because of their belief that jesus was born on 25 December already 161 - 169 CE (when Celsus reports the sect later corrupted as "Carpocratians" by the addition to hegessipus's Outlines about the Roman church succession where Marcellina the Carpocratian is introduced c 180 CE. thanks

07-01-2012, 03:46 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	i wonder if this same principle explains the after three day resurrection in relation to the passover

07-01-2012, 04:20 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The astrotheologists try to explain the three days in the tomb using this principle - the sun appears to be stuck in the lowest position for three days. But I don't see a connection to the Passover.

07-01-2012, 06:41 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	yes it doesnt make sense. the first maybe. not the fourteenth

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