Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-09-2008, 08:52 AM

Perhaps we should distinguish between pagans.

There is obvious Hellenistic influence on Christianity, and this would include some Greek pagan ideas and Greek philosophy.

But the people who talk about "pagan" influence on Christian origins are usually thinking specifically of Egyptian religion and the idea that Horus was a model for Jesus' story, and/or the Dionysian mystery rites.

lycanthrope · 10-09-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Perhaps we should distinguish between pagans.

There is obvious Hellenistic influence on Christianity, and this would include some Greek pagan ideas and Greek philosophy.

But the people who talk about "pagan" influence on Christian origins are usually thinking specifically of Egyptian religion and the idea that Horus was a model for Jesus' story, and/or the Dionysian mystery rites.

Actually, just so we're on the right page. May I know what is the proper definition of 'pagan' and if possible please cite references

Thanks

Toto · 10-10-2008, 12:14 AM

"Pagan" can refer to any ancient who was not a Christian or a Jew - so Socrates and Plato and Archimedes were pagans. But if you Google "pagan Christ" you will find a lot of discussion about possible links between Jesus and the Egyptian gods.

bacht · 10-10-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Perhaps christianity can best be understood as one stage on the evolution of near eastern religious belief with each stage building on the previous one. A particular belief evolving from different but related beliefs.

Once Hellenistic thought structures and Hellenist ideas were introduced, the whole pace of evolution accelerated.

I think Philo is considered to have attempted a combination of Jewish and Platonic ideas (early 1st C), such as the idea of the Son/Logos as an intermediary between the distant Creator and humans. As far as I know his version of Hellenistic Judaism never really caught on among the Jews, but some of his ideas may have influenced early Christians. Philo wasn't messianic, and the idea of the Son dying for atonement may have been a Christian addition.*

*following Doherty here, but I don't think this analysis is controversial

aa5874 · 10-10-2008, 08:50 AM

It is a no-brainer that Paganism must have influenced the Jesus stories. Paganism predate the legendary fables of Jesus of the NT.

Justin Martyr in "First Apology" 21

Quote:

And when we say that the Word, who is the first birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem to be the sons of Jupiter.....

Clivedurdle · 10-10-2008, 10:04 AM

Don't forget the earliest archaeology!

Quote:

The building, which is thought to have belonged to a Roman officer, has a rectangular hall with a mosaic floor bearing geometric patterns, a medallion decorated with drawings of fish - a symbol widely used in early Christianity - and three Greek inscriptions.
One inscription names an army officer who contributed toward the paving of the floor, the second is dedicated in memory of four women, and the third mentions a woman who contributed a table or altar to the God Jesus Christos.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1137605908173

robto · 10-10-2008, 10:06 AM

IMO, any influence from Egyptian religion was VERY indirect, if at all. (E.g. Egyptian afterlife influenced Greek afterlife influenced Jewish afterlife influenced Christian afterlife.)

As I wrote in a previous thread:

Quote:

I think a very good case can be made for the Greek/Persian influence on Christian concepts of Heaven/Hell, Satan, angels, etc. In the OT, there is barely a mention of afterlife reward/punishment, in the NT it is a major theme. In the OT, Satan is God's servant, in the NT, he is God's cosmic enemy. These differences can be traced through intertestamental writings like Enoch to sources in Greek myth and Zoroastrian belief.

If this is correct, then the impossibility of pagan influence on Christian belief is disproved. Note that many of the themes I mentioned came into sectarian Judaism BEFORE they found their way into Christianity - it's not a case of a sudden jump in pagan influence when Christianity came about.

This influence can be traced in some detail through Jewish sectarian writings (Dead Sea Scrolls and the like) and on into Christian writings (Barnabas and the Didache both contain versions of the "Two Ways" doctrine that is found in the DSS, for example).

One rarely finds such arguments spelled out explicitly. For better or worse, scholars tend to avoid discussing "influence" in favor of "similarities". Naturally, it is much easier to point out similarities between different systems than it is to provide evidence that one system influenced another. I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but I can point you to some sources if you are interested - let me know.

gstafleu · 10-10-2008, 10:18 AM

The word "pagan" is a bit difficult to define, so let us ask if there are non-Christian influences on Christianity. That is a very simple question to answer, because no religion develops in isolation, religions always develop from already existing religions. As a result there is very little in Christianity that you don't find elsewhere, all religions share common themes.

So the answer to the question then is: almost everything in Christianity is a "pagan influence" of one sort or another. Even if you exclude Judaism (exactly which Judaism??) from "paganism" then you still have to recognize that Judaism evolved from earlier religions, IOW from "pagan" religions, (some) of whose concepts were then passed on the Christianity.

If you want to be more precise, you'd have to look at specific concepts. Let me (once again :devil1

refer to my infamous food plants thread for some idea of what that might involve.

Gerard Stafleu

lars_egarots · 10-10-2008, 10:32 AM

There were influences on the traditions of Christianity. For example, setting the day of worship as Sunday, and setting Jesus's birthday to Dec. 25th.

Roger Pearse · 10-10-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lars_egarots

There were influences on the traditions of Christianity. For example, setting the day of worship as Sunday, and setting Jesus's birthday to Dec. 25th.

Do we have ancient texts that say "Hey lads, the pagans celebrate xxx on day yyy, so let's do the same!"? If not, I doubt the above statement can be justified.

How Christmas came to be Dec. 25 is unknown, as far as I know. But there is late 4th century statements in the Fathers that connect it with pagan festivals at the time, which the church sought to replace.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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10-09-2008, 08:52 AM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Perhaps we should distinguish between pagans. There is obvious Hellenistic influence on Christianity, and this would include some Greek pagan ideas and Greek philosophy. But the people who talk about "pagan" influence on Christian origins are usually thinking specifically of Egyptian religion and the idea that Horus was a model for Jesus' story, and/or the Dionysian mystery rites.

10-10-2008, 12:14 AM	#23
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	"Pagan" can refer to any ancient who was not a Christian or a Jew - so Socrates and Plato and Archimedes were pagans. But if you Google "pagan Christ" you will find a lot of discussion about possible links between Jesus and the Egyptian gods.

10-10-2008, 10:18 AM	#28
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	The word "pagan" is a bit difficult to define, so let us ask if there are non-Christian influences on Christianity. That is a very simple question to answer, because no religion develops in isolation, religions always develop from already existing religions. As a result there is very little in Christianity that you don't find elsewhere, all religions share common themes. So the answer to the question then is: almost everything in Christianity is a "pagan influence" of one sort or another. Even if you exclude Judaism (exactly which Judaism??) from "paganism" then you still have to recognize that Judaism evolved from earlier religions, IOW from "pagan" religions, (some) of whose concepts were then passed on the Christianity. If you want to be more precise, you'd have to look at specific concepts. Let me (once again :devil1 refer to my infamous food plants thread for some idea of what that might involve. Gerard Stafleu

10-10-2008, 10:32 AM	#29
lars_egarots Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 456	There were influences on the traditions of Christianity. For example, setting the day of worship as Sunday, and setting Jesus's birthday to Dec. 25th.

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