Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 08:07 AM

An interesting development (for me at least) is that the renowned Hebrew linguist Joshua Blau of Hebrew University has noted that the addition of the nun in yeshno is a 'difficulty' because it contradicts the expected for yesho (= yeshu). He thinks this alteration took place in Middle Hebrew, Middle Hebrew being identified by scholars as the language from 200 BCE to 600 CE. We're getting closer.

"the last form (yeshno) is difficult ... I would propose to consider it a Middle Hebrew form that intruded into the Bible text through analogy with its Middle Hebrew antonym eno" (Topics in Hebrew and Semitic Linguistics p 225, 226)

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 09:48 AM

I am beginning to see (unless I am mistaken) that the form eino (ayin + hu) did not completely disappear. It is often argued that the construction of yeshno from yesh is like what happens with its antonym ayin. But the form eino survives. Scholem notes that in the Sepher Yetzirah it means here "His nothingness" (in the same way as yesno means His being). Its just that the Sepher Yetzirah avoids the name of Jesus (my argument)

http://books.google.com/books?id=yXD...tput=html_text

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 11:28 AM

And then I noticed thay eino (ayin + hu) is the Aramaic form throughout the early jewish literature . in other words the form yeshno is very weird even deliberate. I think that tips the scales. the original form yesho was deliberately obscured

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 01:05 PM

The critical passage in the Hebrew of the Sepher Yetzirah. Two versions of the text I can find:

יצר מתוחו‎
‏ממש ועשח אינו ישנו והצב עמודימ גדולימ מאויר שאינו נתפס‎
ויח סימן צופח ומימר עושח כל הּיצור ואת כל הדברים בשמ אחר‎
וסימן לדבר עשרים ושתים מניינם דגוף אחג׃‎

The reading of Isaac Luria:

יצר ממש מתוהו ועשה את אינו ישנו וחצב עמודים גדולים‎
‏מאדיר שאינו נתפס וזח סימן אות א עם כולן וכולן עם א צופה‎
‏ומימר ועשח את כל היצור ואת כל חדבור שם אחד וסימן לדבר‎
‏עשרומ ושתים חפצים בגוף א

The question now comes down to whether there was an original un-corrected Middle Hebrew text which read "אינו ישו" (eino yesho) as opposed to "אינו ישנו." I am fairly certain there was.

Duvduv · 02-14-2012, 01:08 PM

Unfortunately the reproduction from the Sefer Hayetsira or the writings of the Arizal are unclear in your posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical passage in the Hebrew of the Sepher Yetzirah. Two versions of the text I can find:

יצר מתוחו‎
‏ממש ועשח אינו ישנו והצב עמודימ גדולימ מאויר שאינו נתפס‎
ויח סימן צופח ומימר עושח כל הּיצור ואת כל הדברים בשמ אחר‎
וסימן לדבר עשרים ושתים מניינם דגוף אחג׃‎

The reading of Isaac Luria:

יצר ממש מתוהו ועשה את אינו ישנו וחצב עמודים גדולים‎
‏מאדיר שאינו נתפס וזח סימן אות א עם כולן וכולן עם א צופה‎
‏ומימר ועשח את כל היצור ואת כל חדבור שם אחד וסימן לדבר‎
‏עשרומ ושתים חפצים בגוף א

The question now comes down to whether there was an original un-corrected Middle Hebrew text which read "אינו ישו" as opposed to "אינו ישנו." I am fairly certain there was.

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 01:34 PM

And then we get back to the question of the epithet 'notzri' - ישו הנוצרי. I think it means 'transformed' or 'renewed substance' again.

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

When Jewish philosophers in the 10th-12th centuries endeavored to harmonize the text of the scriptures, describing the creation of the world, with the teachings of the Greek classical philosophers concerning the origin of the world, one of the key terms they had to use was creation ex nihilo, out of nothingness, as opposed to creation from primordial matter or the Aristotelian concept of eternal, non-created world. The term they adopted (in the Hebrew works of Rabbi Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Rabbi Abraham bar Hijja, Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra, and others) was creation yesh me-ayin, "something out of nothing," thus giving the Hebrew biblical term ayin the meaning of complete negation, absolute nothingness. Although they did not mean to do it, they gave this Hebrew word the association of being the first, most ancient and most fundamental stage in the process of creation. "Ayin" thus became a term loaded with mysterious connotations, enabled the mystics to use it in a completely different manner. Another text that contributed to the mysterious character of this term was a cryptic passage in the Yezirah ("Book of Creation"), an ancient cosomogonical work, which was probably written in the 4th century by a Jewish mystic-scientist who used terminology characteristic only of this text. The Sefer Yezirah had an enormous influence on the medieval Jewish kabbalists; all of its terms and phrases were closely studied and often used. In the 6th paragraph of the second chapter of this brief work we read: "He (God) created from Tohu (= chaos) - substance, and made eino yeshno." This phrase could be interpreted either as: "He made from what is not what is," or: "He made from His nothingness His substance." The term "eino" could be interpretated as refering to some divine attribute, something which is not just nothingness but a kind of attribute within the pre-creation of divine existence. [Joseph Dan Jewish Mysticism p 64]

But don't you see the Jewish tradition stops short of acknowledging that 'yesno' is also a divine attribute (= Jesus, yeshu) because of the deliberate corruption of the language. I bet if you looked deeply enough there would be some remembrance of the difficulty. Think in terms of the prohibition on speculating about the time before time (i.e. before Creation). Why? Because yeshu is to be found there.

Joseph Dan is a professor at Hebrew University who took over Scholem's position there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dan

Duvduv · 02-14-2012, 02:09 PM

This is almost getting to sound along the lines of the Sabbatians and their way of analyzing such matters.
We know they figured out that the acronym Z V I stood for the phrase "tsaddik be-emunato yichye".......
But on the other hand there must be alot under the surface concerning Yeshu ben Pandera through our sources that have alot more than meets the eye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And then we get back to the question of the epithet 'notzri' - ישו הנוצרי. I think it means 'transformed' or 'renewed substance' again.

stephan huller · 02-14-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

This is almost getting to sound along the lines of the Sabbatians and their way of analyzing such matters.

Yeah who'd think - consulting with Jews as opposed to white people. Next your going to ask me to find out from Japanese people who the best Sumo wrestler is of all time or ask people in the hood about hip hop and rap. Yes, we're all equal ESPECIALLY when that gives an opening to allow the European mean to impose his values on others through a backhanded means of 'fairness.' The way the Jews and Samaritans read and interpret the OT is too 'exclusive.' Needlessly so. You don't need to read or write Hebrew. These are 'tricks' to keep control of their own texts. The real truth is that which is accessible to the most ignorant. That's why Jesus came. To teach everyone to love each other. That's the 'summing up' of the Law and prophets. Oh brother. I think I've outgrown this forum.

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 01:15 AM

In case people suspect I only post views which support my developing theory. Apparently one professor at least didn't like connecting yesh, yeshno and the absence of yeshu with the hypostasis Yeshu (Jesus):

Quote:

Your theory has nothing to do with the linguistic facts. The word Yesh is a common word in biblical Hebrew. It existed long before Christianity and the trial to connect the two is irrational. It has nothing to do with Yeshu (Jesus), and every historian will tell you that Yeshu is in fact an abbreviation of Yeshua (further abbreviation of Yehoshua 'Joshua').
I consider the matter closed and I do not want to discuss the matter with you any longer.
Sincerely,
Ora Schwarzwald

===============================================
Prof. Ora R. Schwarzwald
Hebrew and Semitic Languages
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan, ISRAEL 52900
Tel. 972-3-5325021 (home), 5318667 (office)
FAX: 972-3-7384192 (department)
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~oschwarz
http://hebrew.biu.ac.il/ora.schwarzwald.html

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-14-2012, 08:07 AM	#271
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	An interesting development (for me at least) is that the renowned Hebrew linguist Joshua Blau of Hebrew University has noted that the addition of the nun in yeshno is a 'difficulty' because it contradicts the expected for yesho (= yeshu). He thinks this alteration took place in Middle Hebrew, Middle Hebrew being identified by scholars as the language from 200 BCE to 600 CE. We're getting closer. "the last form (yeshno) is difficult ... I would propose to consider it a Middle Hebrew form that intruded into the Bible text through analogy with its Middle Hebrew antonym eno" (Topics in Hebrew and Semitic Linguistics p 225, 226)

02-14-2012, 09:48 AM	#272
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am beginning to see (unless I am mistaken) that the form eino (ayin + hu) did not completely disappear. It is often argued that the construction of yeshno from yesh is like what happens with its antonym ayin. But the form eino survives. Scholem notes that in the Sepher Yetzirah it means here "His nothingness" (in the same way as yesno means His being). Its just that the Sepher Yetzirah avoids the name of Jesus (my argument) http://books.google.com/books?id=yXD...tput=html_text

02-14-2012, 11:28 AM	#273
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And then I noticed thay eino (ayin + hu) is the Aramaic form throughout the early jewish literature . in other words the form yeshno is very weird even deliberate. I think that tips the scales. the original form yesho was deliberately obscured

02-14-2012, 01:05 PM	#274
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The critical passage in the Hebrew of the Sepher Yetzirah. Two versions of the text I can find: יצר מתוחו‎ ‏ממש ועשח אינו ישנו והצב עמודימ גדולימ מאויר שאינו נתפס‎ ויח סימן צופח ומימר עושח כל הּיצור ואת כל הדברים בשמ אחר‎ וסימן לדבר עשרים ושתים מניינם דגוף אחג׃‎ The reading of Isaac Luria: יצר ממש מתוהו ועשה את אינו ישנו וחצב עמודים גדולים‎ ‏מאדיר שאינו נתפס וזח סימן אות א עם כולן וכולן עם א צופה‎ ‏ומימר ועשח את כל היצור ואת כל חדבור שם אחד וסימן לדבר‎ ‏עשרומ ושתים חפצים בגוף א The question now comes down to whether there was an original un-corrected Middle Hebrew text which read "אינו ישו" (eino yesho) as opposed to "אינו ישנו." I am fairly certain there was.

02-14-2012, 01:34 PM	#276
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And then we get back to the question of the epithet 'notzri' - ישו הנוצרי. I think it means 'transformed' or 'renewed substance' again.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.