French Prometheus

You have mostly been preaching, witnessing, appealing to emotionalism and insulting others. When confronted to educated counter-arguments, you switch to ad hominems and other fallacies. The problem is that you don't even realize that. You have come with your very basic standard Christian apologetics, your Bible quotes and your cultural prejudices and expected to overawe people into conversion. Well, it doesn't quite work that way.

rostau

Psalm, I know this feeling well. In my own life, it has nothing to do with anti-God or anti-Christian sentiments (I do not believe in God). It has to do with the nature of debate on the Internet. I once got involved in an online debating mailing list that completely took over my life and turned me into a very unhappy person. Every now and then I still get that gloomy feeling, even though I am much older now and able to laugh at myself. The thing is that people tend to handle debate on the Internet completely differently from the way they would handle it in real life. It can be very upsetting and it can make your life miserable because the medium (text posting) is much more limited than actual conversation, and yet people very often don't take those limitations into account. I fully understand that this can be extremely distressing and can make you an unhappy person. You just have to accept the limitations of the medium. If it's really bugging you, withdraw. I did that for over a year, cancelled all my mailing lists and didn't visit any web sites with message boards until I was sure I wasn't going to get caught up in the same BS all over again. But time went by and I did get caught up in it again, and it again made me mentally unbalanced. I'm not even joking here. So I withdrew again, for a very, very long time, until June this year when I decided to start posting here. So far, so good.

Psalm 13:5

Wow, I can't believe you are talking to me about 'insulting'. Of everyone on this site, you have probably been the most insulting person. And (coincidently?) one of the most, if not the most, vehemently anti-Christian, anti-God people. I can't think of one post by you to me that has been normal, and with common courtesy, they have all been talking down to me.

In fact, I already told you at least once that I didn't want us to post to eachother anymore, but you didn't respect that. You just keep on with the insulting talking down posts.

I hope someday you can get rid of that intense, irrational venemous hostility you have for all things Christian. I don't think it's healthy to go around with those feelings, and I for one feel sorry for you.




Thank you. But I don't completely agree, because I've posted on many sites... including one where I was one of 2 or 3 conservatives on an extremely left-wing, almost marxist board... and even there things were fine for the most part, in fact I made friends that I still talk to and I ended up staying there for a few years. But anyway, thanks for your reply rostau.

peace,
cindy

unknown4

To tell you the truth, this is about how I feel about Christianity. While I may read some Christian viewpoints, I almost feel sick doing so. Sorry, but I just can't get myself to feel cheerful and hopeful about a religion which says most of mankind will be tortured for eternity for believing the wrong thing. You may see it as irrational hatred for all things Christian, but for you what is the "good news", is not good news to me. I don't find it "good news" thinking most of mankind will be tortured for eternity. Of course, if you start with the premise that all of mankind should be tortured for eternity anyway, then yea, that would make Christianity good news. So, there's a difference in viewpoints. You think Christianity is like the epitome of all that is good I suppose. It's hard for me to share that opinion.

Asha'man

Hey Cindy,

I mostly hang out in the ‘Scholarly’ forums, BC&H, E/C, and S&S. These forums are generally extremely polite, but amazingly dangerous. The ‘regulars’ of each forum are amazingly well informed. If your argument has the least bit of weakness, they will (politely) tear that weakness apart. If you detach yourself from your argument, then everything is fine, and a scholarly discussion can follow. If you are emotionally attached to your argument, you will end up feeling personally abused, I guarantee it.

The unprepared and ignorant theist is simply unable to deal with this. They think it is a personal attack against them and their religion. They are not ready to confront the fact that they have been misled by their religion. They lash out with abusive posts, ignore good points and clear evidence that they are wrong, and generally leave very upset.

The ‘regulars’ on the other hand, never suffer in such a way. First, they don’t put much emotional weight behind the argument, keeping a level of detachment. This is made easier because the arguments presented by theists are almost always a repetition of the same old material, which has already been torn apart repeatedly. The regulars also have the advantage of being correct: because these topics have been discussed over and over again, they know what position is best supported by the evidence and they know what the evidence is, and they know what mistakes and misconceptions to avoid.

Now, I’m sure you have run into anti-god negativity in many discussions. But, if you are complaining about that feeling from this thread, I think you may be ignoring the real problem: you came to a gunfight without even a knife. Rather than taking lots of wounds and retreating in a bloody mess, examine the marksmanship and tools of the other side. Learn what they know, find out why the atheist position here is so unassailable. It’s not because we are anti-god, it’s because the evidence is anti-god.

Jack the Bodiless

Well, most of the stuff you've been given (on this thread, at least) is a simple summary of the facts: that Biblical scholars generally agree that the "prophetic books" were post-exilic, written after the events they portray.

If reality is "anti-Christian" (or "anti-Bible": not necessarily the same thing)... doesn't that tell you something?

Also, I don't know if you're a Young-Earth Creationist or not, but if you are: then you've locked out all knowledge of the actual story of the evolution of life on Earth. A story which I find to be much grander, more impressive, and more "inspiring" than anything in the Bible. Eden was a sideshow by comparison.

French Prometheus

Well, I can't remember a post you wrote to me that was not insulting. But I guess we don't agree on what is offensive and what isn't. You keep calling me anti-Christian (as if people like you were the only brand of Christians out there) and "anti-God" (which is as ridiculous as if I called you anti-spotty leprechauns). You are a very prejudiced person.

And I've already replied to that. I've never sent you any PM or email and I sure don't plan to. Now, this is a public forum and I'm free to post "to" you just as you're free to ignore my posts.


I hope someday you can get rid of that ethnocentric (read racist) irrational venomous hostility you have for all things non-Christian. I don't think it's healthy to go around with those hateful delusions and, as I told you before, I feel sorry for you because I'm sure you only have "good intentions".

BTW, some of my friends are Christians. But they're from a different brand of Christianity than yours. They respect others instead of just pretending that they love them.

Vorkosigan

Great summary, Ash. Dead on target.

That's too bad. Because the people here are among the warmest, friendliest, smartest people I know. They just have no respect for bad, dangerous ideas, and Christianity is among the baddest and most dangerous. Infidels is like Lothlorien -- there's no negativity here, Psalm, except what you bring with you. And believe me, Psalm, what you brought here was the veritable Ring itself, Psalm, you brought it here, and then demanded that we treat it with respect. Not here, Psalm, not now, not ever. Infidels is the one place where we don't respect ideas because some people fervently believe in them.

Go in peace, little lady. I hope you come back from your missionary experience a wiser and more experienced young woman, ready to rectify the numerous and yawning gaps in her education, and with an understanding of the world that doesn't end at "Moses wrote the Five Books." When that time comes, we'll be happy to welcome you back to this place.

Vorkosigan

Psalm 13:5

No, I wasn't talking about that feeling on this thread, but on the site. Second, I know this is going to sound harsh, but I'm going to be honest. I have never seen so much arrogance and vanity as I have seen on this board. I'm serious, I can rarely click on a thread and not see (except for maybe on the fun, lighter threads) arrogance in the air so thick you can cut it with a knife. For example: "The majority of people are such morons. Any thinking person knows...." yadda yadda yadda. You get the point.

And I don't mean to be insulting, but your post above is an example of this. I have never in my life seen so much pride as I have in the atheists I've encountered here. And what's interesting is that (from a Biblical perspective) one of the worst sins of all, if not the worst, is pride. It is exactly that stubborn, prideful heart that you all have that is blinding you from that the majority of all people can see. And even in your post above you assumed things that aren't the case. As I said in my post a little earlier, I've been posting on forums for years now, I have heard all your arguments, so your notion that your arguments are new to me is wrong. And while there are some good debaters here, I have to say, I've seen the arguments on both sides and I truly think the arguments for atheism are weak, and take far more faith. Also, it's funny that you said that theists are attached emotionally to their arguments, because that is what I think the problem is for many atheists. From what I have seen, atheists often have serious issues that blind them from seeing the forest for the trees. I read a post the other day that made me truly sad, because I saw the intense anger and denial in a few people about things that you know deep down inside are true. I'm talking about a thread where some people were saying they don't do wrong things, and they were so angry, lashing out at the person who said that they do do wrong. (everyone does)

That is what this ALL boils down to, in my opinion, an incredible stubborn heart, and prideful heart that will, ultimately, only be doing yourself harm. Not willing to submit and acknowledge there is something much greater than yourself that exists. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of those things, but I admit that I'm less than perfect, and when I do find myself falling in to those ways, I want to change it, that is not the way I want to be. As CS Lewis said, "Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind."

unknown4

CS Lewis also said that Jesus was wrong in thinking that he'd return before the generation that heard him died off