brighid

Yes, the typical "Wiccan" goes unnoticed because most are no different than anyone else you encounter walking down the street. One can also be "goth" and not be "Wiccan" and many "goth" individuals I know would find it either peculiar or insulting to be considered "Wiccan" simply because they dress in a particular fashion. As a matter of fact I know very few "Wiccans" who dress "goth" in any way. Even at regional gatherings one finds few (relative to the whole) of individuals with artificially pale skin, black lip stick, dyed black hair, platform heels, dog collars, et al.

This stereotypical image is largely portrayed by the media, or simply average folk mistaking "goth" kids for Wiccan. The two are no synonymous. Furthermore, the fact that people mistakenly identify Wiccans as "goth" is merely a symptom of ignorance and watching The Craft a few too many times.

The fact is one is unlikely to be able to spot a Wiccan in any diverese crowd of people, unless one is educated about the subtle imagery, symbols and language a Wiccan is likely to use to identify herself/himself in public. Another reason one is unlikely to spot a Wiccan is that it is very often dangerous for a neo-pagan to be "out" in public. Therefore they will have no outward appearance to signify their religious view points.

Therefore this notion that most (if not all Wiccans) are simply teenage girls filled with sexual angst dressed in black clothing has no other foundation than that of ignorance, and occassionally a goth teenager who also happens to be Wiccan (and not merely a goth, into Vampirism, or simply a dark haired girl with a very pale complexion who also happens to like to wear black clothing.)

Although there is no "direct" link between Celtic folk religion and the deliberate evolution of the neo-pagan Wiccan religious movement Celtic folklore, mythology and known history does play a significant role in certain Wiccan traditions and covens. Many of us can even legitimately trace our ancestory back to a distinct Celtic heritage (such as myself.) The Celtic tradition (as least as I know it) is merely an attempt to revive or live according to what is presently known about this heritage/religion from researched history, folklore, poetry, mythology and our own familial traditions. It is certainly a melding of modern and "ancient" knowledge that has become something unique and relatable to today's Wiccan practitioner.

Sometimes I think there is a lack of complete communication between the neo-pagan and the outside world, mostly due to a lack of common understanding and an ability to accurately express something that has no dogma, hierarchy, or distinct and fluid history.

Brighid

Evoken

This is nothing but an ignorant generalization on your part, have you actually met a Wiccan? And I don't mean those who you can see in the media. My previous girlfriend is a Wiccan and she is not a goth. I am what you would name a goth and I am not a Wiccan but I have recently been growing an interest in Wicca does that means I have an identity crisis? I don't think so, people change over time as they grow and learn new things if you just stay the same then we could say that you have a problem(ever heard of cognitive disonance?).

Sure there are their bad apples and people who first watch the craft or charmed and then decide to become all goth and wiccan to be cool and "fit in" or as a counter reaction to their parents, but that makes them as goth or as wiccan as an atheist who rejects the bible because he found a site with 100s contradictions in google.

Not all Wiccan are goth in the same sense that not all goths are wiccan, do you know that there are christian goths too? or what about atheists and agnostic goths?

I would suggest that you get your facts straight before you actually start pointing fingers, it does no harm to actually learn about something before openly attacking it.

4th Generation Atheist

Well as far as clothes are concerned the Wiccans I remember seemed to favor earth-toned browns and greens, and if they stuck out at all it was by dressing a little on the casual side (lots of jeans in situations where they'd be inappropriate in other communities). But that might have been just because I was in the Midwest. Also, I saw very little of the "ritual nudity" that is so famous. Clothing was optional at the festivals but many seemed to prefer to remain clothed anyway (and a sunburn in an odd location often converted people from "nude" to "clothed" preference in a hurry! ) In many cases this was likely also regional: Minnesota winters do not lend themselves to outdoor nude ritual. I don't remember much Goth make-up; most of the ladies seemed to prefer no make-up at all. The silver pentacle was indeed ubiquitous, though often hidden under a shirt. Ankhs and other such signs that we now associate so much with Goths (probably because of the character in the Sandman comic, and their appearance in "vampire" subculture) did not yet have that association and sometimes appeared as a "more creative" alternative to the pentacle. (I still have my pentacle BTW. I only ever owned one, the silver one with two circles that's made from a silver coin. I still see these for sale for seven to ten dollars. They are, if you're looking, good standard-workhorse pentacles. I keep mine mostly for sentimental value, in the sort of personal-history-junk drawer). All-black was for certain ritual occasions (usually autumn or winter ones), for costumes, or for dressing up for a night at the club, not an every day thing.

There were a lot more women of all ages than men, which looked good until you realized how many weren't interested in men anyway (it's a free country, though often a disappointing one isn't it....) Yes, the young girls tended to have issues that the older priestesses did not. Is that all that surprising?

I'd say that if one wanted to spot a Wiccan in my day, one looked for: *) a silver pentacle, worn openly or secreted down a shirt. The latter is spotted by seeing that the individual in question always has a chain with a pendant obviously on it, tho you never see the pendant. *) a preference, usually, for natural fibers in muted tones. *) a preference for no make-up, and any scent is usually the natural-oil coop type stuff. *)among the more open ones, greetings like "merry meet" and "blessed be". *)murky excuses for not showing up to mudane plans on the weekend nearest the solstice or equinox, and around February 2nd, May 30, August 2nd and Halloween. These days, the Wiccan may also manage to get the day following these dates off of work. *)most importantly, books, books, books. I never see this in anyone else's stereotypes but I have yet to meet a serious Pagan who wasn't a bookworm! More open ones might even read their Pagan books and mags in public, a dead giveaway. Less open ones will favor fantasy novels, leaving the other publications at home.

Now of course the above is fairly stereotyped, but that was the impression I had of the "average" Pagan, including oathed Wiccans, when I was active. There were plenty of exceptions, but those who were "trying" for the role usually did the above, and this seemed to be the Pagan mainstream. I'm not sure what or how much has changed.

Desertphile

Merry Meet.

I am Wiccan: I started the Coyote Wicca Church in California in the year +2,000 GC (Gregorian Calendar), though I have "been Wiccan" since +1,983 GC. There are currently seven members of Coyote Wicca.

I do not think, nor believe, nor teach, the claims that Wicca is ancient, nor Celtic, nor the other points and issues you raised. Coyote Wicca fully acknowledges that Wicca is a rather new Goddess- / Earth-centric cult.One of the reasons I started Coyote Wicca was to oppose the obnoxious and fraudulent claims made by the "Buffy Wiccans" (those who get their "Wicca" from television). I readily conede most of the statements you made.

There are several Wiccan atheists: I meet some at a yearly Wiccan / Pagan festival held in Colorado every year (which I have attended since the year +1,989 GC). They see Goddess and God as a Jungian archetype, and embrace Wicca as a ghestalt cognative mechanism to understand themselves psycho-dynamically---- no magic, no supernaturalism, no absurdity applies. That is the kind of Wicca Coyote Wicca teaches: the universe is natural, no part of it is "supernatural." (There is no such thing as the "supernatural.")

Desertphile

Merry Meet.

Er, the Wiccan Rede is an ideal, not a mandate. I do not know of any Wiccan, least of all myself, who thinks or believes she or he can somehow avoid causing harm. Life is predicated upon harm: through action or inaction, one's very existance inflicts injury to other life forms (harm).

The Rede also holds as the ideal that one enact one's own will in the world, and not the will of others (nor fail to enact one's will). Again, that is not always possible nor desirable in all cases, which Wiccans certainly concede (or sure as no hell ought to).

As for Wicca being "Celtic," there are Wiccan Trads trying to be; there are many more Wiccan Trads that do not. My church, Coyote Wicca, is 100% North American.

As for as religion being "valid," I have no idea what such a concept means. Neither do you.

Desertphile

Well, let me just check inside my pants...

(ZZZZZIP!)

Oh, hey, I'm not a girl! You are right! Nor am I "Gothic. "MAG" seems to have goitten hold of some silly stereotype and run with it. Most Wiccans I've met (and they number around 900) and most Wiccans I know (dozens) are "dress suit and starched blouse" / "suit and tie" adults.

Very rarely, now and then, I'll meet a teenage Wiccan girl wearing black at a Wiccan or Pagan gathering. I generally complement her on how dark and angst-filled she looks (to validate her). They tend to abandon the "Gothic" look in a year or less. As for Wiccan girls stewing in sex hormones, well, yes, I've met dozens and dozens--- they behave no differently than non-Wiccans.

Desertphile

I've met several Wiccans who object to sex and avoid it. I've also met many Wiccans who would have sex with any and every human being in sight, plus a few farm animals who couldn't run away fast enough. In other words, when it comes to sexuality, Wiccans are in general utterly no different than the culture they come from.

In general, the Wiccan approach to seuality is vastly saner, healthier than the Christian approach.

Jimmy Swaggart liked to copulate with whores in sleezy motels (and fantasized about a nine-year-old girl), and has a fantasy about killing a homosexual man. Perhaps he could find some emotional healing by embracing Wiccan sexuality ethics and mores (though since he's a pedophile, a cure is probably impossible).

Desertphile

Merry Meet!

LOL. Sorry you were so dissapointed. I've attended about three dozen Wiccan / Pagan festivals since the year +1,989 GC, and I've met many (hordes) of Wiccan women who were there only to find a man. Naturally a decent, good, healthy, safe man--- the Wiccan and Pagan women who go to festivals to find a man are almost without exception HIGHLY selective.

In fact, for the past six years I have facilitated the "Just Ask!" project at various Wiccan and Pagan festivals. http://www.justask.ws This is to help women and men meet men and women at Wiccan and Pagan festivals. Lots and lots of Wiccan and Pagan women participate.

Many women who go to "get laid" go home without "getting laid" because:

1) they couldn't find any man worthy enough

2) they do not have the social skills to achieve their goal

3) their mental and emotional desires conflicted

4) they did not actually want to "get laid" afterall

I'm not at all handsome, nor desirable, nor sexy, and I am always approached by Wiccan and Pagan women (and now and then a man) sexually. It is a matter of personality.

Blesse Be!

4th Generation Atheist

I wasn't going "to get laid". That was an aside. But I didn't find what I was looking for there either; it just didn't speak to me is probably what most of the people I remember would say. What I experienced was that I couldn't do the "belief", and at the time there were no Pagan atheists. If I voiced atheism I was generally treated as intolerant, and when I finally decided it wasn't worth it to go on being unwelcome, I left. A few friends were sad to see me go, but I still had their phone #s so they got over it.