TedM

I get a kick out of the conspiracy thinking here about my true motivations. I'm one of the most honest persons living on this planet, so it is humorous to me to see the disbelief. A bit unsettling at the same time though, as I'm not used to being doubted so much (except for by an atheist friend I have who questions my true reasons for doing good things)...

Not to me. A forever existing universe with any laws at all and no lawgiver makes no rational sense to me.

To seek after the source of justice and fairness. Ie, to find God.

You underestimate the power of license. Atheists don't have to answer to anybody. It is incredibly empowering. It would be naive to think that some people don't deconvert in order to enjoy the freedom without guilt or fear of punishment.

I"m sure many atheists are a lot of fun to be around, and there are many who are 'good' people and care about others. But I still question what is wrong with them..

Jaybees

What a fascinating idea! So a Xtian who sincerely believes in god feels that the burdens laid upon him by the almighty are just too burdensome. Having thought this out, he then decides to stop believing in god so that the Xtian can then do many of the things that god doesn't allow.

Neat trick. Could you explain how a person goes about dliberately disbelieving in something she/he believes in?

MrMacSon

TedM
Cause & effect is not a universal law; its a principle of explaining. If it were, your god would have to have a cause. Otherwise, you're just be special pleading.

Toto

How do we know? You can be honest on one level, but wrong about your own motivations or your understanding of others.

It makes sense to physicists. Have you studied physics?

This is just an argument from personal incredulity. You say there must be a god because you feel there is a god, and you have associated that with a facile reason. But this is not an honest argument. It is just a way of affirming what you believe and dismissing others as emotional and irrational.

You're going around in circles again. Your god seems to do things that do not embody justice or fairness, but you have defined that god as the source of justice and fairness, so you invent the idea that we are unworthy to even question this god, like Job. You could get out of this dilemma by realizing that there is no god.

There's that argument based on personal incredulity again. I know a lot of atheists and have read or heard of a lot of deconversions, and this factor never enters in. What is your evidence?

So admit it, you are a Christian believer.

TedM

Hi Earl. What surprising comments from you

yeah, me too. At least we agree on that one.

Thanks for posting this article. I suspect you maybe have not read all of my postings on this thread, as you probably would have plenty more to say..

Anyway, I have read your article.

My answer is simple:

It is easier for me to conceive of a God with unknown origin and attributes, who created the known universe, than the universe having no origin--meaning it has always existed. A universe that follows natural laws seems to require a source of creation. A God with unknown attributes may not require a source of creation.

I find the argument regarding God's complexity to add nothing to the age-old debate. How God became complex is unanswerable.

My issue with spin was simply that if one is going to assume God exists, then it is most reasonable to assume he is far more intelligent than any of us humans, and therefore we have little reason to conclude that we can understand his nature/attributes enough to judge them negatively, as there may be wisdom and goodness in the things that cause us distress that is beyond our understanding.


I can't say I'm looking forward to it continuing, but I thought you intended to address my reply to you on the Hebrews 8:4 thread (you had a one paragraph post in reply, but I think indicated you would reply further, though not quickly).

Ted

TedM

You underestimate the power of desire. Ever here of 'where there is a will there is a way'? I'm not suggesting that any of it is conscious here though. Most likely would be subconscious--starting with thinking of things with less faith and more doubt...Doubt breeds doubt..there is plenty in the world to jar a Christian's faith..evolution, natural disasters, terrible diseases, lack of clear supernatural documentation, hypocritical leaders, dissenting theologians and biblical historians...


Isn't 'for every action there is a reaction' a universal law -- for our universe? Yes, I put God in a 'special' category, not subject to natural law. Doesn't that just make sense?

aa5874

Your statement is contradictory. Assumptions do NOT give you or any one any reason to think God is far more intelligent than anything or anyone.

One can ASSUME anything about God when God is an ASSUMPTION.

Let us ASSUME that God is far less intelligent.

Let us ASSUME GOD has NO intelligence.

Let us ASSUME GOD was Created by some kind of IDIOT GOD.

TedM

Physicists don't know enough to make a rational decision about the origin of the laws of the universe,

I make a distinction between the natural (which requires an origin) and the above-natural, which may or may not require an origin.


'seems to' is the the key phrase which causes people to seek understanding and confirmation of the reality of these principles. I think I've been misunderstood. I think we can question but I think it is presumptuous to judge. We just don't know enough to conclude that God is uncaring simply on the basis of how things make us feel.


Few would admit to it. But, it's just common sense. People want to do things that give them pleasure, and if they can do them without guilt too that's a huge bonus. As I just said to mac, this may not be on the conscious level very often, but certainly it is a factor. When I lost my faith, it was a terrible time because I couldn't pursue dating a Christian girl I liked (I felt like a traitor), but I do recall also feeling great freedom to do some things that I had previously felt were sinful. I do not believe that was my motivation at all, but I can easily see it being a factor for many.


too funny..I cannot tell a lie.

Well, this has been mildly entertaining, but I must turn in for the night. Other than labeling atheism as depressing I haven't said anything too unusual, have I? I must turn down the frequency as there are things to get done this week. aa's arrival is a clear signal for me to tone it down...:0)

TedM

You guys and your word hang-ups! I guess I"m going to have to change my 99 out of 100 to 98 out of 100. 2 people think humans could be more intelligent -- perhaps far more intelligent -- than our Creator God. aa and spin. Anyone else care to join bizzaro-world?

aa5874

You do not understand what "ASSUMPTION" means.

ASSUMPTIONS are Not Facts.

This is so basic. God is an ASSUMPTION.

People can ASSUME God is EVIL.

People can ASSUME God is an IDIOT.