Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razlyubleno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

[...] adonai saviour annointer.

I'm really confused where you're getting these titles from. Paul is pretty consistent with: κυριος ιησος χριστος, Kurios Iesos Christos, or some variously declined version thereof. Do we have reason to believe that Paul ever associated the word "adonai" with anyone but God? He didn't speak Hebrew, so if he knew the word at all, it would have only been through liturgical use as a title to be said in place of the tetragrammaton.

... and doesn't christ/messiah mean "anointed one," rather than "anointer"?

razly

All I am doing is discussing titles of a god - which is not the same as talking about a person walking around Nazareth!

And annointer is a logical extension of messiah and the idea of the Holy Spirit being poured out. My point is to see these as attempts to describe an idea - not anything fixed like a person.

We assume "Lord Jesus Christ" is the same as "Jesus of Nazareth"

It is not related at all.

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

It actually makes sense. Every time (as far as I can remember) Paul references the divinity of Jesus "according to the Scriptures", he refers to a "kurios" (lord) in the LXX without the qualifier "theos" (god). When that qualifier "theos" is attached to "kurios", Paul thinks this is the "Father". So the Greek speaking Paul's erroneous idea that there are two "lords" being talked about in the LXX with similar powers, but one seems to be of higher status than the other.

He seems to be unaware of YHWH and that Hebrew literate Jews would pronounce it LORD instead of Yahweh.

So Paul found his Lord Jesus Christ in the LXX!

razlyubleno · 04-13-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

My point is to see these as attempts to describe an idea - not anything fixed like a person.

Well sure, but did the Greek name Iesos carry the same connotations as it's Hebrew counterpart?

razly

Amaleq13 · 04-13-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

at the core of these "Gospels" was The Gospel so how could Paul preach something not yet in existence?

He didn't and that is the point you aren't grasping. He didn't preach the details of the Gospel stories (eg virgin birth, John the Baptist) and didn't attribute to Jesus sayings placed in the mouth of Jesus in those stories.

Neither of those makes any sense if Paul was familiar with the written stories as we have them. We would expect to find indications of familiarity rather than the opposite.

Quote:

I see where this is leading, if Paul was preaching the Gospel, then the much later date for the Gospels is not valid.

No, if Paul was preaching things clearly from the Gospels, then the much later date would not be valid. He doesn't, so a later dating continues to be viable.

show_no_mercy · 04-13-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razlyubleno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

My point is to see these as attempts to describe an idea - not anything fixed like a person.

Well sure, but did the Greek name Iesos carry the same connotations as it's Hebrew counterpart?

razly

That's what I've been wondering for a while. Yeshua is a compound word/name that means "Yah Saves". It seems that the Ie is pronounced the same "Yah" or "Yeh". If so, what does the second part of the name "sos" mean in Greek? According to my dictionary, it means "yours" but that doesn't make sense. Does "Iesos" mean "Your Yah"?!?

Or was Yeshua's name simply phonetically written/pronounced in Greek as Iesos without any regard to its meaning?

Toto · 04-13-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by razlyubleno

Well sure, but did the Greek name Iesos carry the same connotations as it's Hebrew counterpart?

razly

That's what I've been wondering for a while. Yeshua is a compound word/name that means "Yah Saves". It seems that the Ie is pronounced the same "Yah" or "Yeh". If so, what does the second part of the name "sos" mean in Greek? According to my dictionary, it means "yours" but that doesn't make sense. Does "Iesos" mean "Your Yah"?!?

Or was Yeshua's name simply phonetically written/pronounced in Greek as Iesos without any regard to its meaning?

It's Iesous, not Iesos, formed from the Hebrew for Joshua, or the Aramais Yeshua. The -ous ending is just the usual Greek ending for masculine nouns.

Iesous is common throughout the Septuagint as the translation of Joshua. I have yet to see any evidence that it was a title.

show_no_mercy · 04-13-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

That's what I've been wondering for a while. Yeshua is a compound word/name that means "Yah Saves". It seems that the Ie is pronounced the same "Yah" or "Yeh". If so, what does the second part of the name "sos" mean in Greek? According to my dictionary, it means "yours" but that doesn't make sense. Does "Iesos" mean "Your Yah"?!?

Or was Yeshua's name simply phonetically written/pronounced in Greek as Iesos without any regard to its meaning?

It's Iesous, not Iesos, formed from the Hebrew for Joshua, or the Aramais Yeshua. The -ous ending is just the usual Greek ending for masculine nouns.

Iesous is common throughout the Septuagint as the translation of Joshua. I have yet to see any evidence that it was a title.

Ah, ιησος was missing a ύ

razlyubleno · 04-13-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It's Iesous, not Iesos, [...]

Yeah, my bad. I was reading it in the genitive and thought it was second declension for some reason, just swapped the "ou" for an "os." I guess that means I'm still not fluent, huh?

razly

razlyubleno · 04-13-2009, 10:05 PM

Of course, "sous" is still a perfectly valid word. If "Ie" were a verb, "sous" could be it's direct object

What linguistic fun we're having...

razly

Clivedurdle · 04-13-2009, 10:05 PM

How does Paul making Joshua a god relate to the gospels?

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04-13-2009, 10:05 PM	#69
razlyubleno Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Azerbaijan Posts: 120	Of course, "sous" is still a perfectly valid word. If "Ie" were a verb, "sous" could be it's direct object What linguistic fun we're having... razly

04-13-2009, 10:05 PM	#70
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	How does Paul making Joshua a god relate to the gospels?

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