sotto voce

There is evidently a contemporary attempt to force a distinction between Jesus and the apostles, particularly Paul. This can be assisted if Jesus can be made out to be a Jew as loyal follower of the Torah, rather than as the one who did away with that legalism as a failed stop-gap, as Paul taught. Jesus’ sayings indeed echo teaching found in Judaism, but not often the religion of the Sanhedrin members. These were largely those who had made profitable accommodations with Rome, as well as introduced their own legalistic distortions of the orthodoxy of which Jesus reminded them, to their great discomfiture. The Sanhedrin had not been established by Moses, Joshua or anyone else approved by Jehovah. It is too easy for modern minds to be beguiled into supposing that the Sadducees, Pharisees and Herodians were the orthodox Establishment, and Jesus was the heterodox rebel— and that modern Judaism is biblical orthodoxy. Think vice versa. One may need a new perspective on Israel as a phenomenon.

One cannot identify and evaluate Jesus properly without a detailed study of the Old Testament, that never gave any indication that Moses' laws were permanent. Indeed, it foretold the very opposite. It is therefore hardly credible to suppose that Judaism is the biblical norm, i.e. the true religion of Jehovah, when the books of canonical prophets made this indication, and when it is observed that 'Judaism' has been without Promised Land as originally constituted for 1900 years, and there is no future possibility of establishing it.

No Robots

^I agree with everything you say here, sotto voce. We need another thread to go over this thoroughly.

aa5874

Well, Christian tradition actually shows that Jesus Christ had no human brother called James ordained as an Apostle.

Mark 3 There is NO tradition that Jesus Christ ORDAINED his "brother" James in gMark.

Now, let us go to Acts of the Apostles and see if there is a Christian tradition that the so-called Apostles ORDAINED some James the Lord's brother as an Apostle.

Acts of the Apostles 1 Later in Acts, based on Christian tradition, Judas was replaced with Matthias.

Acts of the Apostles 1 From the Earliest Gospel to Acts of the Apostles there is NO Christian tradition that Jesus had a human brother that was an Apostle.

Now let us go from Acts of the Apostles to Jerome and see if there was a Christian tradition that Jesus had a human brother called James that was ordained an Apostle.

"De Viris Illustribus 2
There was NO Christian tradition that Jesus had a human brother that was ordained an apostle called James from gMark, the Earliest Jesus story, to "De Viris Illustribus" written at least in the 4th century.

The Christian tradition is that there were TWO Apostles called James--one the Son of Zebedee and the other the Son of Alphaeus.

Sheshbazzar

In my experience, every friend or relative that ever accepted Jebus was changed.....for the worse.
They were real alright. They were turned into self-righteous and judgmental hypocrites.
Suddenly, because they were allegedly 'filled with the Holy Ghost', whatever stupid thing it was that they said, they always had to be right.
They transformed from being reasonable, to being dogmatically infallible in their pronouncements, and would argue their unsound and insane religious opinions relentlessly.
Formerly friendly conversationalists, they became sly and devious in setting up conversations so as to lay traps filled with loaded questions, and either 'hurt' or outraged when they don't get the answers they desire.
If this Jebus, the inspiration of those changes is real, then he is a damned demon.
No I don't believe in demons. Religion is a Socially Transmitted Disease of the mind.
Wouldn't surprise me at all. With their minds already made up, and set in their superstitious, ignorant, and dishonest ways, they 'will not be moved' and are not amenable to reason.

Thankfully, the rest of the world will move on and grow in understanding of how this world and universe really works,
abandoning these ******* to the dead-end darkness of their superstitious religious persuasions.







.

No Robots

In a recent interview Crossan makes his position clear:

Q So what was the matrix within which Jesus lived?

A As long as the world was thought to be entirely Christian, it worked to think of Jesus in a strictly Christian matrix. But after the Holocaust, Jews said, “But Jesus was a Jew.” So we said, “Okay, okay,” and we put him back in a Jewish matrix. That was just polite. No big deal. But I take the Jewish matrix seriously, because that gives us all the stuff about justice and eschatology — that’s what it means to be a Jew. But it’s not enough to say Jesus was a Jew — so was Caiaphas! Then the next layer is the Roman Empire. And that’s where scholarship is today.

Crossan gets some things wrong (the Jewish reclamation of Christ actually began long before the Holocaust), but he is right to say that the New Testament is comprehensible only within the context of Jewish literature. The historical-critical method is actually a vast project of de-Judaization, and mythicism is its endpoint. The only legitimate method for interpreting the New Testament is one that situates it firmly within Judaism.

sotto voce

But if they accept Jebus, that is only to be expected. There are more phoney conversions than there are genuine. In sight of the beautiful Appalachians, it may be supposed that there are no genuine conversions at all. People are either duped into believing that they have become Christians, or, more likely in the USA, they actively promote themselves as Christians knowing that they are not as claimed. The reason for this is that already mentioned, that there are genuine conversions, and genuine converts worry some people. They do their best to dilute and debase Christianity, to give it a bad name. Those people are not going to be swayed any more than genuine converts by attempts by scholars to disprove the existence of Jesus, or to alter his message.

sotto voce

And Judaism must be understood in the context of the promises to the patriarchs, people whom modern Jews seem almost to have forgotten. They forget that Abraham, the friend of YHWH, Isaac and Israel (Jacob) had no Mosaic Law. Others need to realise this larger framework, also.

Sheshbazzar

Yes, by now we are all quite aware, that under your limited definintion of a 'Christian', there is no one other than yourself that qualifies as a True Christian™.

Iskander

Don’t count me in, please

Sheshbazzar

OK, only -most of us-, who have read sotto's various posts are by now quite aware of sotto's position.
You are welcome to remain unaware if you wish.