Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnnyboy · 01-18-2007, 09:53 AM

Hello guys,

I have a question. I allways heard that Quirinus was Governor of Judaea from 5 CE on, but now somebody made up the claim, that he was governor of Judoea from 11-7 BC too. Is that right? Because then, Luke ant Matthew won't contradict on that point anymore.

Toto · 01-18-2007, 11:01 AM

Richard Carrier deals with this in his essay, The Date of the Nativity in Luke: Was Quirinus Twice Governor?

In short, no.

Quote:

Some have tried to reconcile Matthew and Luke by inventing a second governorship of Quirinius, placing it in the reign of Herod the Great. However, we have no evidence at all that Quirinius served as governor of Syria twice, much less that he did so when Herod was king of Judaea. Moreover, no one ever governed the same province twice in the whole of Roman history, making the very proposal implausible. Three inscriptions and a coin have been used to imply otherwise, but none of these items contain any of the information claimed by those who want Quirinius to have been twice governor, and they offer no support to the theory. We also know who was governing Syria between 12 and 3 B.C. and therefore Quirinius could not have been governor then (or before, since he was not qualified before the year 12). Also, in section 3 it will be shown that there was never any such thing as a dual governorship, nor could there have been, given the nature of Roman political and social organization, and even if Quirinius had been governor or co-governor of Syria at an earlier date, no census could have been conducted in Judaea while Herod or his successor Archelaus were alive.

spin · 01-18-2007, 11:16 AM

Josephus indicates, in AJ 17.1.1 and 17.2.1, that (C. Sentius or Voluscius?) Saturninus was the legate in Syria from about 9BCE to 6BCE when Quintilius Varus took over the position, though strangely, Josephus refers to Saturninus and Volumnius as governors at the same time in Syria in AJ 16. Marcus Agrippa was in charge of Syria from 17BCE to 12BCE, so there may be a window between 12BCE and 9BCE.
-----------
Just looked at Carrier, who gives Marcus Titius before Saturninus. This is also partly based on Josephus who talks of a certain "Titus" as in charge of Syria, AJ 16.8.6. Carrier cites Strabo 16.1.28 as his source for the name. Strabo talks simply of a Titius who was in charge of Syria and dealt with a Parthian issue. This figure cuts the time available in the window, if any is left.

spin

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-18-2007, 02:41 PM

Nobody was Governor of Judea before 6 CE. That's when it became annexed as part of the Syrian province. No Governor of Syria before that time had any jurisdiction over Judea.

JoeWallack · 01-19-2007, 06:50 AM

It's The Dating Of The Age Of A Quirinius (The Age Of A Quirinius)
(Harmony & Misunderstanding)

JW:
The Legendary Richard Carrier, one who speaks with authority and probably the Protis authority on the Birth Dating error the world has ever known, has this to say on the subject in his related article at ErrancyWiki:

ATTEMPTED SOLUTION #2 - Inventing Another Governorship for Quirinius

"Even fishing a different date out of Luke would leave a contradiction within Luke, since the only chronological detail about Jesus that Luke is absolutely clear on is that he was born during "the first census when Quirinius was governing Syria" (Luke 2:2). All evidence confirms that Quirinius first became governor of Syria in 6 C.E. and the first Roman census of Judaea occurred at that time, and Luke clearly says this was a Roman census (Luke 2:1). So Luke didn't leave much room to maneuver. To reconcile Luke with Matthew, one must invent two facts nowhere in evidence: some other Syrian governorship for Quirinius and some other census affecting Judaea, both before Herod the Great died.

But trying to invent an earlier Syrian governorship for Quirinius is a lost cause. Not only is there no evidence of it, and not only does it go against a plain reading of all the evidence we do have, but it's essentially impossible. No one ever governed the same province twice in the whole of Roman history. So the claim that Quirinius was the sole known exception is so extraordinary it certainly can't be maintained without evidence. Such an astonishing and unique honor could not have been omitted by Josephus or Tacitus (Annals 3.48), yet both describe his career without any mention of it. Historical evidence also confirms other men governed Syria between 12 and 3 B.C.E., so Quirinius could not have been governor then, and he was not qualified to hold that office before the year 12. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...cid=41896#ref3

Stymied by all these facts, inerrantists have resorted to everything from fabricating evidence of dual governorships or other fictional offices Quirinius is supposed to have held, to changing the year of Herod's death. None of this is even remotely reasonable, and most of it is based on the fantasies of amateurs or the abandoned conjectures of long dead historians. First, the alleged physical evidence:"

JW:
Carrier than proceeds to trash specific Desparate Housewifes' tales of Apologetic attempts here:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...pis_Tiburtinus

Enjoy!:

Joseph

"You've been Wikied!" - JW

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Johnnyboy · 01-19-2007, 10:46 AM

Thank you very much guys! :grin:

01-18-2007, 09:53 AM	#1
Johnnyboy Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 117	Quirinus Governor of Judoea from 11-7 BC? Hello guys, I have a question. I allways heard that Quirinus was Governor of Judaea from 5 CE on, but now somebody made up the claim, that he was governor of Judoea from 11-7 BC too. Is that right? Because then, Luke ant Matthew won't contradict on that point anymore.

01-19-2007, 06:50 AM	#5
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	It's The Dating Of The Age Of A Quirinius (The Age Of A Quirinius) It's The Dating Of The Age Of A Quirinius (The Age Of A Quirinius) (Harmony & Misunderstanding) JW: The Legendary Richard Carrier, one who speaks with authority and probably the Protis authority on the Birth Dating error the world has ever known, has this to say on the subject in his related article at ErrancyWiki: ATTEMPTED SOLUTION #2 - Inventing Another Governorship for Quirinius "Even fishing a different date out of Luke would leave a contradiction within Luke, since the only chronological detail about Jesus that Luke is absolutely clear on is that he was born during "the first census when Quirinius was governing Syria" (Luke 2:2). All evidence confirms that Quirinius first became governor of Syria in 6 C.E. and the first Roman census of Judaea occurred at that time, and Luke clearly says this was a Roman census (Luke 2:1). So Luke didn't leave much room to maneuver. To reconcile Luke with Matthew, one must invent two facts nowhere in evidence: some other Syrian governorship for Quirinius and some other census affecting Judaea, both before Herod the Great died. But trying to invent an earlier Syrian governorship for Quirinius is a lost cause. Not only is there no evidence of it, and not only does it go against a plain reading of all the evidence we do have, but it's essentially impossible. No one ever governed the same province twice in the whole of Roman history. So the claim that Quirinius was the sole known exception is so extraordinary it certainly can't be maintained without evidence. Such an astonishing and unique honor could not have been omitted by Josephus or Tacitus (Annals 3.48), yet both describe his career without any mention of it. Historical evidence also confirms other men governed Syria between 12 and 3 B.C.E., so Quirinius could not have been governor then, and he was not qualified to hold that office before the year 12. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...cid=41896#ref3 Stymied by all these facts, inerrantists have resorted to everything from fabricating evidence of dual governorships or other fictional offices Quirinius is supposed to have held, to changing the year of Herod's death. None of this is even remotely reasonable, and most of it is based on the fantasies of amateurs or the abandoned conjectures of long dead historians. First, the alleged physical evidence:" JW: Carrier than proceeds to trash specific Desparate Housewifes' tales of Apologetic attempts here: http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php...pis_Tiburtinus Enjoy!: Joseph "You've been Wikied!" - JW http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

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01-18-2007, 11:16 AM	#3
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Josephus indicates, in AJ 17.1.1 and 17.2.1, that (C. Sentius or Voluscius?) Saturninus was the legate in Syria from about 9BCE to 6BCE when Quintilius Varus took over the position, though strangely, Josephus refers to Saturninus and Volumnius as governors at the same time in Syria in AJ 16. Marcus Agrippa was in charge of Syria from 17BCE to 12BCE, so there may be a window between 12BCE and 9BCE. ----------- Just looked at Carrier, who gives Marcus Titius before Saturninus. This is also partly based on Josephus who talks of a certain "Titus" as in charge of Syria, AJ 16.8.6. Carrier cites Strabo 16.1.28 as his source for the name. Strabo talks simply of a Titius who was in charge of Syria and dealt with a Parthian issue. This figure cuts the time available in the window, if any is left. spin

01-18-2007, 02:41 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Nobody was Governor of Judea before 6 CE. That's when it became annexed as part of the Syrian province. No Governor of Syria before that time had any jurisdiction over Judea.

01-19-2007, 10:46 AM	#6
Johnnyboy Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 117	Thank you very much guys! :grin:

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