outhouse

are you failing to realize this was a required event, and that all jews in the area were required to come, not just those in the city


this was big buisiness for the time

outhouse

now the city had running water, even a trickle will supply enough for thousands.

a stream the size of your pinky will supply enough water for 1400 people for a whole day.



the city also had sewage, the city also had space outside in the tent villages




there were plenty of jews in all nearby cities and villages.




water
food
space
people


they had all 4

Sarpedon

Oh really? a trickle is enough? Where are your sources for this? Maybe for drinking, but not for sanitation. I feel I'm quite qualified to comment on this, given I've been working on city water works and sanitation projects for the past 10 years.

C'mon mr expert on everything, lets hear your sources on that, I'd find that fascinating!

According to Wikipedia, Rome received in excess of a million gallons a day, or one gallon per person. That is in addition to the Tiber river and wells, which Jerusalem would not have had.

The modern estimate is 50 liters (12 gallons)/per person per day. Even if we reduce this to 2 gallons per person, we are still talking about 200,000 gallons of water a day for a city of 100,000.

2.3 gallons a second, and that's just drinking and washing water. That doesn't include water for flushing the drains. That's a lot more than a trickle.

That is only water for personal use. It doesn't count animals or industrial use. How much water does an average pottery shop use? A dyer's shop? I haven't the foggiest, but I bet its a lot. Currently, industrial use accounts for 22% of all uses. It probably isn't so much back then, but it can't be cavalierly ignored, like you seem to be doing.

Iskander

The wealth of Egypt would also benefit Palestine.


Palestine in the first century was a very different country from the one studied in the ottoman census: the ottoman census should only be used as evidence for the damage inflicted on the Jewish and Gentile population.


Tacitus is a much better source of information than the ottoman record of the outcome of centuries of war waged on the native population of first century Palestine and their descendants.


A USA census of Native Americans would not be used to dogmatically assert that we know the population of the native civilisation before the arrival of Columbus; why to apply the findings of the ottoman census to Palestinian natives?


Trying to use the ottoman census to dogmatically assert we know how many people were in Jerusalem during Passover 2000 years ago is the same , but even more uncertain.

Duke Leto

Where are you getting these numbers?

How fast is this stream? I figure maybe a milliliter will go through my pinky per second for a slow moving stream. If we're talking about my faucet it can go through several liters of water in a minute, but no stream on Earth, not even Niagara Falls, has as much water pressure as a faucet.

Let's be generous and say 10 ml per second. 10 * 3600 * 24 = 864,000 ml. You're supposed to have 3 liters per day, but lets be nice and say 1 liter per person in the Jerusalem semi-desert in mid-spring. That's only 864 people from a fast moving stream the size of my pinky, not 1,400. Now we're talking about either a fast moving stream the size of 400 of my pinkies or 4000 of them. My pinky is about 2 cm^2 on the tip. Our hypothesized stream would have to 8000 cm^2 or 0.8 m^2. OK, that's a slow moving stream one foot deep and eight feet wide.

Show me that stream outside Jerusalem that's that size.

Even if the water supply into Jerusalem is that big and completely regular, how are all 400,000 of your pilgrims going to use the mikveh?

What are the donkeys, camels and other pack animals they brought with them going to drink?

How are the lines to water supplies managed?

outhouse

keep twisting you will not dig your way out of the hole you created.

yes a trickle 1gpm, makes 60gph which in turn makes 1,440G a day. 1 gallon a day per person would support campers like these.

300 gpm which is a very very small stream would get the temple through a week


there were storage places everywhere with thousands of gallon in storage


there were bathing pools the size of ponds in place for the ritual cleaning of animals and people everywhere.


there was no shortage of water, the temple had large crowds in the past and this event wasnt their first rodeo. if it was needed it would be done.

its not as much the water supply but the storage that makes or breaks your poorly thought guesses.


had there not been enough water it would have been recorded in history, and it was, thats why Pilate built the aquaduct

Duke Leto

Apples and Oranges. The Ottoman Census is the ENTIRE Population for the region, not simply the Jewish population. The number of Native Americans or Native American descendants in the USA is a fraction of the entire population.

It's the total population that could be supported by local agricultural economy that we're interested in, and comparing an estimate of the non-agricultural indigenous population of the area now called the USA around 1490 to the highly industrialized civilization that occupies the area now is meaningless. Frankly it would not surprise me that if you combined the "pure" Native Americans with those who have a significant degree of Native American ancestry that there are MORE Native Americans in the USA now then there were in 1490, even when you exclude the Mexicans etc. (The lowball estimate for the population of the USA in 1490 is 2.1 Million, I honestly think even that is too high.)

outhouse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusal...erodian_period

Herodian water works

The aqueduct, a method of conveying water to the city, was an integral part of Roman city planning. Already quite large, Jerusalem needed to satisfy the needs of countless pilgrims annually, requiring much more water than was available. Water was taken from Ein Eitam and Solomon's Pools, about 20 kilometers south of Jerusalem crow flies and about 30 meters highter in altitude than the Temple Mount. Like its Hasmonean predecessor, the Aqueduct took a sinuous route in order to bypass ridges laying in its path, although at two locations it was carved as a tunnel: a 400 meters long section under Bethlehem and a 370 meters section under Jabel Mukaber. At Rachel's Tomb the aqueduct split into two, a lower aqueduct running to the Temple Mount and an upper aqueduct leading to the pool near the Herodian Citadel. Until recently the upper aqueduct was thought to have been constructed 200 years after Herod's reign, the work of Legio X Fretensis which resided in Jerusalem. Recent studies, however, indicate that the Legion only renovated the aqueduct which had been partially destroyed.


Jerusalem was at once a grand pagan city and the center of Jewish life at its peak. Temple ritual continued unabated in the new and lavish building. Huge number of pilgrims, perhaps as many as a million

Sarpedon

How? Where's your evidence of this? Egypt was a roman province that was the personal property of the Roman Emperor. We are not talking about Illinois and Missouri here. There is a barely passable desert between the two regions.

I've not been in the least dogmatic in my use of the ottoman census. Please explain how I've been dogmatic.

I have not used the ottoman census for anything than to establish a believable range of populations in a pre-modern society. To compare it to using current population of native americans to precolumbian populations is simply and one hundred percent dishonest misrepresentation of my argument. Do I need to produce documentation that shows that farmers in the region used similar tools and methods as have been unearthed in ancient archaelogical digs? Wooden plows drawn by donkeys were used continuously in the region for thousands of years. The technology barely changed throughout that time. That is the difference between the situation in Palestine and the situation in America.

The fact that you would make such obviously false and misleading comparisons shows how limited your understanding of history actually is. If you have evidence that the ancient farming technology of Palestine was superior to the Ottoman era,and therefore could support a greater population, please supply it. I am absolutely confident that it wasn't. If you think that Palestine was importing vast amounts of grain from Egypt, provide documentation. I don't think it was, the grain was going to Rome.

In fact, why don't you tell me what you think the population of Palestine was, and say what Tacitus thought it was, and how, exactly you account for his exaggeration.

I also would like someone to explain exactly what the difference is between someone guessing in the 1st century about 1st century populations, and someone guessing in the 21st century about 1st century populations, and why one would prefer the first over the second.

Duke Leto

A problem with water in dealing with half a million people would ALSO not be recorded if there were never half a million people in the area to cause a water problem.

Dude, you've just been told you're arguing with a civil engineer specializing in water supplies in the person of Sarpedon, is it not time to consider the remotest possibility that you may be a little out of your depth?

I for one am not trying to humiliate you. I started this thing by asking you to reconsider quoting number that is transparently exaggerated. I'm trying to keep you from making yourself look stupid the next time you bring this up.

You still have not cited your source on the physically impossible 20,000-30,000 per acre figure.