abe smith

Easy, dado. = i can't quote you chap+verse (very likely in Matthew); the man & his guys were walking along on the sabbath; and hungry, they took live heads of grain growing there, rubbed them between their hands , and munched-up the kernels.
Also (surely agen in Matthew) the Pharisees or the scribes, to get him in trouble against the laws, asked "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath day?" To which the man answered "Which of you having an ox or an ass fallen into a pit..." etc And it's in the same passage, I'm virtually certain, Guy continues "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

In Judaiism the Sabbath *isn't* punitive; it's to give human beings rest & joy = the holiest holiday., once every 7 days. A real clebration.
Go on-line and ask for info about the Jewish sabbath. Nothing is allowed to diminish its holy joyfulness. (Hence, burials must be completed before the
Sabbath begins.)

Helpful hint: to find "chapter & verse", use a Bible w/ a *Concordance*, wh is a fancy name for "subject index". This is in alphabetical order (English), like any other index. Look up the major word or phrase (e.g. "needle's eye"; or "prodigal son" or "unjust judge "(one of Jesus's jokes)) and the Concordance will take you there.

Queen of Swords

If they threw the child out of their house because the child's very first instance of misbehavior was to eat a cookie without permission, would you call this unconditional love?

Magdlyn

Dado is offline, so I will just mention, he is a Jew, and a well-read one.

We could ask him, is it lawful to pick grain, heal, or pull a sheep out of a pit on shabbat?

For reference:http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...Go.x=17&Go.y=4

John the Non-Baptist

I used to be a practicing (though never proselytizing) Christian, back in the day. It took me a while to open my eyes and mind, but ideas like this one definitely helped speed things along. The concept of salvation reduces our lives to a mere scavenger hunt: "Sorry, we realize you fed the hungry, clothed the naked, housed the orphans, treated your fellow humans with respect,and filled sandbags when the creek rose, but you didn't find the red bottle cap that says 'You've been saved,' so sorry, you're going to hell. Unfortunate!"

Unfortunate and, I finally realized, completely bogus.

doubtingthomas

Still waiting for a reply to my last post about Jesus' failed second coming prophecy.

Iconoclastithon

www.deism.com
www.deism.org
www.deistnet.com

"belief in God{ess}/creator{s}/deity{s}, based on nature/creation and on "reason".

dado

i realize it's hard to tell on the forums sometimes, but my question wasn't intended to be a challenge. i was just wondering if there was anything beyond the two standard verses which are rather dubious at best as examples of Shabbat violations.

funinspace

You've already made an assumption that can be wrong. He left me, so to speak, say in Bible talk.

1. The fantasy left me. I wanted to understand the parts that I couldn't fit into a perfect/inerrant Bible that preacher's et.al. kept saying was fine. So I dug deep, and found the well dry. The OT big fables (Flood and Joshua's solar object demands) are utterly without foundation, merit, or truth. So with a foundation more like limestone than granite, the foundation started to crumble as I looked to NT issues. Once you can no longer assume a inerrant cannon, the serious and real flaws of the various books stand much clearer.
2. So you could say he left. I begged to understand what was wrong with me, and my understanding. I even went to a professor at a Bible college, and his explanations were naked as the Emperor's.
3. There are no outward affects of the HS in this world. And Xianity offers little or nothing more than elsewhere, towards the moral qualities of humanity.

DK

Aravnah Ornan

It's funny how so many Christians seem to assume that Jesus was only kidding in Matthew 25:31-46.

And that leads me to my three biggest reasons -- oops, I mean "excuses" -- for deconverting:

1. The Bible contradicts itself.
2. The Bible contradicts observable reality.
3. Christianity impales itself on its own words: "By their fruits you shall know them."

By the way, I did not "refuse" Christ. I desperately wanted to believe. But the more I studied and pondered the Bible, the less able I was to believe it, until finally my belief fell below a threshold level.

Iconoclastithon

{1} Jesus said to obey whole law of Moses, and yet could'nt even do so himself.
{2} Jesus said that his followers would perform great signs and wonders that he did-and even greater{lets not forget what he as "the word of god" is supposed to have done prehis human birth}, and I have yet to see or even hear of one substantial miracle done by one of his followers{which has not and cannot be performed by someone of another religion in the names of their gods, or by magicinas/illusionists, or by the power of faith though "positive thought" "self/mass hypnosis"
{3} lack of evidence{hitorically and otherwise} to support his existence or at least that he did and said alot of what is attributed to him{other than four of twelve diciples-and it's disputable whetehr they even wrote the accounts , not to mention nothin from other followers, and that the accounts were written allmost half a centurt later by old men who's memorys were probably a little foggy by then-human memory SUCKS} And for the Bible and whom wrote the variuos scrolls,etc.

bonus reason;
hypocrisy and evil of the old testament god and his followers and law.{and the fact that Jesus,his followers, and his modern church all have failed to obey Jesus commands to obey the whole law}

there are sooo many more reasons to reject Christs lordship, but I'll stop here.