Baidarka

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LP675
"Summary of discussion:
-Silly assertions were made regarding Ananias and Sapphira"
Yes, I think that some one claimed that God did it. Imaginary beings don't do anything. They don't kill any one.
There is an extra biblical Jewish Story about Abram's childhood in Ur. It seems that Abram's father owned and Idol shop. Well one day Daddy leaves Abram in charge of the shop. Abram breaks one of the Idols and put's the "murder" weapon in the hand of another Idol. when Papa came home Abram blamed one of the Idols. I don't think that Papa believed the lie. I don't think that any sane person would. Who murdered Ananias and Sapphira? Certainly not the Idol.

" and the reasons for their deaths (i.e. they didn't add enough to the churches profit)"
I could list dozens of possible motives. The NT links their deaths with money. Who knows what kind of scam Peter was running?

"-I demonstrated they were killed for lying about what they gave"
What kind of sick God do you believe in?

"-Suggestions were made that the book of acts is not historically reliable, and the bible was pooh poohed."
Are you going to make the case that the bible is Historically reliable?

"- I pooh poohed suggestions that ‘Peter and his goons’ were involved in some horrible murder and conspiracy."
You can Pooh Pooh all you like but you haven't come close to coming up with any kind of sensible alternate explanation.

"If that about wraps it up I think I will call it a day. It’s been fun guys."

Yea I guess your all wrapped up in apologetic knots.

Baidarka

The story is better then my recollection.
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_a...rahamidols.htm

The Midrash answers all these questions. There it is explained that when Abraham was still a young child, he realized that idol worship was nothing but foolishness. To make his point, one day, when Abraham was asked to watch the store, he took a hammer and smashed all the idols - except for the largest. His father came home aghast. "What happened?!" he shouted. "It was amazing, Dad," replied Abraham. "The idols all got into a fight and the biggest idol won!"

As you can plainly see unlike George Washington, Abram lied. Idols don't come to life and break anything.
If there was a Peter and a dead couple and if Peter said that God did it then Peter lied. Imaginary Gods can not do anything.

LP675

lol

LP675

I don’t think that would really be a sensible course of action. If someone had been seized with fear, after two of the members of the community had been struck down, and that person believed it was the doing of the omnipotent God the Christian community worshipped, don’t you think it would be a little foolhardy to offend Him by rejecting him, and turning to the worship of another god?

No the sensible thing to do would be to behave yourself, and feel good knowing you served a powerful God (and in fact the only God). The best course would be to continue to :notworthy ------> God (Note the worshipper has a smile on their face, they are doing it happily).

GermanHeretic

First, yes it was Peter, mea culpa. Here's the case:

Two people were killed, after having sold their property, given a part of the profit to the church along with lying about the amount of profit. Guess we can agree to this.

I do not really care, whether God killed them for lying or not paying enough or both. This story is intended to bring church members into line. If do not play the game correctly --> God kills you. And what do we learn from this? God is a maniac killer, not only in the OT but in NT as well, which is frequently denied by christians.

(Besides, in a court today, the excuse "God killed them" would surely not hold, and Peter or other attending christians got jailed for murder.)

gravitybow

(Gulp!) Behave yourself (out of "great fear") while worshipping with a smile on your face? What kind of psychotic church is this, worshipping with fear in their eyes and a plastic grin on their faces? This reminds me of the old Twilight Zone episode "It's a Good Life" where the six-year-old monster Anthony Fremont terrorizes his family and neighbors in an inescapable Hell. Despite the twisted punishment he metes out, everyone still responds, "It's a good thing what you done. A very good thing." They don't want to be next!


Exactly. And oddly enough, LP675's post says pretty much the same thing, but in a psychotic smiley-face kinda' way.

LP675

Yes we can. And why is that? Simply because that is what the text says, which is (as far as I know) the ONLY narrative we have of this episode. You say ‘ah ha! look at Acts 5 which the Christians believe in, what a nasty God, he does this and that’. If you play that game you have to stick to the text or it is not what the Christians believe, and your waffle is irrelevant.
In other words you don’t care if assertions you make are utter rubbish. You made the assertion god killed these people for “not adding enough to the church's profit�, and again claimed hey were killed because “they didn't pay enough�. Now you don’t care. Why should anyone listen to you now, perhaps next post you won’t care if your last post was total drivel or not.
No, If you lie to God there are consequences, perhaps even as severe as in this case.
We learn to respect God, the omnipotent creator and judge of the universe. We learn there are consequences for our actions. We learn God is Holy and “It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.�
And who can protest any injustice has been done Annanias and his wife if they went straight to heaven?
Are you attempting to say they “would get jailed for murder�? And so what?
This is weak. I’m looking at this as a law student, and it is just nonsense. What bearing is this statement meant to have on anything? And who in their right mind would proffer that ‘excuse’? The defense would most likely play the burden of proof game, especially in mysterious cases like this. And if it was a court today they would have access to modern autopsies, and could prove that peter didn’t stab, beat, poison them or whatever, so convincing a jury it was murder would be very difficult.

Regards , LP

LP675

Gravitybow I think you can be forgiven for misunderstanding what I (or bible passages) mean by statements to the effect ‘the fear of the Lord’ is a healthy thing. I am not sure if I can properly articulate what it is, and the role it plays in a Christian’s life, but I will attempt to do so. The following attempt will bore you silly if you don’t care about it. If you have no interest in understanding the concept, then by all means continue to attack it as you are doing (it’s no skin off my nose).

Consider the verse I mentioned before; “He will delight in the fear of the LORD.�. Fear (terror) is something one would not generally think could co-exist with delight. Who delights in being scared (terrified)? Nobody. That would be strange behavior. And the healthy ongoing fear of the Lord that a believer should continue to live and delight in is certainly NOT terror. It might be said there are different types of fear related to the Lord, one more properly thought of in the sense of ‘terror’, another more properly thought of in terms of ‘respect’.

You have probably heard this hymn, which speaks of fear in pre-conversion:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

He is very grateful, it was grace which lead him to fear God. It is a healthy thing to realize that the omnipotent and holy God will judge you, and one should certainly have a terror of this because no one meets the standard for ‘right living’ that God fairly expects. But one must move on from that terror, such fear must be relived, when a repentant person comes to the correct understanding of their position before God after they are forgiven. They need not fear the judgment and wrath of God any more.

In Acts 9:31 the church “was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.� Peace, joy, a sound mind, happiness are all compatible with a healthy ongoing ‘fear of the Lord’ (respect) the believer should have. So when I said “the worshipper has a smile on their face, they are doing it happily� (and this would be the sensible thing to do), I don’t mean they should worship out of terror, but in joyful respect. God is on the side of the believer, they don’t have anything to be terrified of regarding God.

Now it may well be the 'fear' described in Acts 5:11 “Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.�, could be said to be of a different kind to that described in Acts 9:31 where the church “grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.�. Perhaps that described in Acts 5 is terror. It seems in the analogous circumstances I keep referring to in 2 Samuel 6 “ David was afraid of the LORD that day� might be fear in the sense of terror. That would make sense. If people are being stuck dead, it is only natural that one reacts in terror for their own life. But such fear in David’s case was short lived, and it should also have been in the Acts 5 scenario, because reflection by a Christian on their position in relation to God brings assurance.

So I suspect you misunderstood what I said when you wrote:
So I hope you now understand this is not an accurate portrayal of the church or practice I was speaking of. The smile is genuine not plastic.

LP

Magdlyn

Do Christians believe God killed this unfortunate couple? The text doesn't say that. We have plenty of speculation room.

Does the text say these people went to Glory? No, it does not. Mere speculation again.

Dropping dead as a "consequence" of lying is not common. In fact, this might be the only time it was ever recorded, AFAIK. So, what do we learn? I learn that ancient Xtians were gullible and superstitious. I learn we better not lie--to Peter!

Who can complain if they did happen to go straight to Glory? Hm, perhaps the dependents (children, slaves, servants, livestock) they probably left behind?

As far as proving or disproving Peter's guilt, right, he was safe there. Modern forensics did not get going til late in the 18th century, AFAIK.

Boro Nut

The usual Christian interpretation is that this is a warning that greed and avarice will catch up with you, and ultimately prevent you from reaching paradise. Fair enough. That may or may not be true. But it still doesn’t explain how anyone else will actually get in to heaven if, by definition, it is clearly smaller than the eye of a needle.

Boro Nut