Chris Weimer

Sorry Biff, you cannot try to dismiss Dr. Jeffrey Gibson as merely a student, as you tried to do with me.

Oh the fun of arguing ex auctoritate.

Biff the unclean

[QUOTE=jgibson000]<too personal comment edited> We are talking about commentaries attesting to the historicity of the fabulous. I gave you three examples of it happening, and happening even in the present day.
Do you think half human/ half god creatures actually existed? Do you think that people in the Hellenistic world did not believe in them? If you would like a listing of them you’ll have to wait ‘til this evening when I’m with my home library. I can’t believe anyone is that <edit>, but if that’s what you want…

Biff the unclean

<off topic comment edited>

jjramsey

What you did was change the subject. You claimed,

When Dr. Gibson pressed you for evidence regarding this claim, you replied,

which is not even close to being evidence of what ancients believed about demigods.

Toto

Moderator request: Let's try to keep this thread open by avoiding personal comments or slurs.

Biff the unclean

Then what do we do with the Odyssey and the Iliad? We make no assumptions that the divine and the semi-divine characters are historic based solely on their magical status. The historic content of the Iliad wasn’t considered as such until it was confirmed by archeology. Why change that criteria for Jesus? We would demand independent confirmation of the Odyssey’s claim of an historic Cyclops, wouldn’t we?
I wonder what Lowder is talking about when he says “the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material,"? Surely ancient writings containing mentions of actual real Troy cannot be extended to the historic Apollo they also mention. Is Lowder actually claiming " we should not require independent confirmation of the Iliad's claim that Athena existed"?

jgibson000

[quote=Biff the unclean] <edit for consistency>
Not without equvocation, we're not. As your own words show, we were talking about stories about demigods that were produced and propounded by the ancients which were also discussed by other ancients who believed the stories were "true".

I have no idea what the antecedent of the "it" is here, but what you gave me has nothing to do with your original claim.


How what I might think about the actual existence of the half human/half divine creatures spoken of by the ancients (of which BTW neither Big Foot, not the Loch Ness Monster, nor alien abductors are one) would be relevant in deciding the truth of your claim about ancient stories concerning these creatures stories having commentarriwes produced by ancient believers is beyond me.

Some did, some didn't. For instance, Plutarch, who produced a full blown commentary on Isis and Osiris didn't. Nor did the Stoics and the Epicureans. Or the Euhemerists. Or many of the philosophers. Or Lucian. But again, that's not the issue. The issue is whether you can back up your claim.

If I would like? What part of "Could we have some primary evidence for this please, especially when it is a case of a story about a demi god who lived and worked within living/recent memory of those {ancients] who allegedly wrote the [ancient] commentaries you refer to [in your claim that "the ancients had stories about demigods that were a dime a dozen. All with commentaries from the believers about how they believed they were true"] don't you understand?

<removed for consistency>

JG

Solo

The Catholics confess Mary as Aeiparthenos, the perpetual virgin. On the subject of Jesus "blood" relations by Mary, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states (para 500):

"Against this doctrine (of perpetual virginity) the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not refering to other children of Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary". They are close relation to Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression".


Jiri

knotted paragon

howdy Dr. Gibson, The Mahabharata* might qualify, since Maha Rishi Veda Vyasa, its supposed author is also one of the characters in the epic. Karna of course would be the demi-god, son of Lord Surya, the Hindu deity of the sun.

...brian...

* from sacred-texts, translated by Kisari Mohan Ganguli

jjramsey

Obviously not. From the article in question:

It is pretty clear from the article that the supernatural is considered to have low "epistemic probability," which would rule out both Athena and the Jesus that we see in the Gospels, but not a man named Jesus whose story was embellished.