Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seebs · 03-09-2007, 03:06 AM

Did we ever get a clear answer as to who no_one was? I think it's interesting that, despite the hostile tone of them, many of the factual claims in no_one's criticism of murron turned out to be surprisingly accurate.

Stumpjumper · 03-09-2007, 04:02 AM

Congrats Annabel Lee!

seebs · 03-09-2007, 04:11 AM

http://www.christianforums.com/t4945...outsiders.html

A friend of mine told me a story, once. He heard it as part of a sermon a pastor preached. It used to be that people dressed up rather a lot more for church than they do now. And one day, when everyone was sitting neatly in rows, in their suits and their best dresses, and the service had already started, the doors at the back of the church opened. A man came in. He was a hippie. He had long hair. He wasn't wearing a suit. He may not have been quite as fresh as a person who'd showered recently would be. And he came in, and he looked around, and there were no spots in the pews at the back. So, while the sermon continued, he sort of edged forward, looking for a spot, and more and more people looked back at him, some of them staring openly.

He finally just sat down, in one of the aisles, to listen. Now, this is just Not Done; many people felt concern about this. And, sure enough, one of the church elders, a dignified gentleman in a suit, got up and began excusing his way over to the newcomer. He reached the young man, and he did the one thing no one expected.

He sat down with the young man.

Can you see why? The story, of course, has a happy ending; the reason the pastor knew the story is that he had been that young man. And, had he not been welcomed, he might have had a very different life.

I hear a lot of stories about people being excluded and made unwelcome by Christians, and these disturb me. I am curious as to the experiences of our guests and seekers; have you seen this too? How has it affected you?

In light of consideration of this, I've asked staff to remove my icon. No, I'm not deconverting; I am, if anything, more zealous and more convinced than I was last year. However, I have concluded that throwing tidbits to the heathens over the walls is not an adequate witnessing technique, so I thought I'd come and join you all for a while.

DougLDS · 03-09-2007, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat59

Congrats to Granabel Lee....and the happy mother and baby
*snuggles*

And here I thought Annabel was just a 20-something radical troublemaker! :Cheeky:

Heartfelt congrats to you and your dear ones!

seebs · 03-09-2007, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma Bum

And here I thought Annabel was just a 20-something radical troublemaker! :Cheeky:

Well, Californians mature faster than Midwesterners.

A LOT faster.

Stumpjumper · 03-09-2007, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigToe

I don't think accepting a privilege means you endorse the denial of that same privilege to others at all. That sounds like survivor's remorse. Flaunting your luxuries in the faces of others is one thing, but to have them and use them normally is nothing to be ashamed of.

It isn't an all or nothing game.

It all comes down to what's fair or not. Using what is fairly available to you isn't unfair to anyone. Bragging that you have that ability is unfair. You can both have and use something and still be fair to those who don't. It comes down to how you treat other people. That is honestly the only fairness any of us has control over. We can't force others to treat everyone fairly, I don't think that would be, well, fair. We can conduct ourselves in a manner which is the fairest of our abilities and hope others do the same. We can't expect fairness, we have to show it. It is up to each individual to decide if they shall conduct themselves fairly towards others.

My issue is that CF is and has been sending a mixed message and inquiries into whether or not someone is really a Christian is not something that a discussion forum should be doing.

It's clear to me that CF is saying that non-Nicene affirming members are not Christian and this is apparant in Frumanchu's ridiculous trichotomy of theological, soteriological, or covenental Christians.

He and many like him are saying that those people who reject the Nicene Creed are not Christian but of course only "theologically"

Give me a break. If we really went by theological statements to determine who is and is not Christian the CO section would be practically vacant simply because you could find ways to exclude just about everyone. Why is double or single procession (the filioque) any more of a Christological heresy than denying homoousios?

Most Baptists are Nestorians. Why are they allowed to freely spread their heresies in the CO section? What about those who deny regenerative Baptism, believe in a thousand year earthly reign of Christ ("whose Kingdom will have no end"), or the rapture heresy?

Why are they allowed to call themselves "theologically Christian"?

When they get this issue fixed, I'll ask for my cross back...

seebs · 03-09-2007, 04:29 AM

It can never be fixed. The formal heretics are a majority, and they are also the same people who find it crucial to exclude those they disagree with.

The Catholics accepted disagreement some centuries back, although it wasn't always easy going, but the concept of "imperfect communion" is good enough that they can handle the obvious and immediate reality of non-Catholic Christians. A doctrine to the contrary cannot stand against discernment; as soon as you meet your first non-Catholic Christian, you know that they exist.

But, right now, the various heresies that have to be accepted because those people provide ad revenue are here to stay. I don't think this issue will be fixed; it's been a problem for at least five years now, and the people who could do something about it either don't care or actively prefer it this way.

Do keep in mind, no matter the public statements, there are plenty of people on staff who have affirmatively stated that one person or another "isn't Christian", even if that person accepts the Creed. As long as that's the case, the claims that no one is being called non-Christian are lies, plain and simple.

The icon that looks sorta like a plus sign at CF is not the true Cross. It is a thing which attempts to serve in lieu of the Cross, and as such, I think it is probably formally an idol.

DougLDS · 03-09-2007, 04:33 AM

Just a reminder that there is a world outside the internet.....

Tawny · 03-09-2007, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

http://www.christianforums.com/t4945...outsiders.html

A friend of mine told me a story, once. He heard it as part of a sermon a pastor preached. It used to be that people dressed up rather a lot more for church than they do now. And one day, when everyone was sitting neatly in rows, in their suits and their best dresses, and the service had already started, the doors at the back of the church opened. A man came in. He was a hippie. He had long hair. He wasn't wearing a suit. He may not have been quite as fresh as a person who'd showered recently would be. And he came in, and he looked around, and there were no spots in the pews at the back. So, while the sermon continued, he sort of edged forward, looking for a spot, and more and more people looked back at him, some of them staring openly.

He finally just sat down, in one of the aisles, to listen. Now, this is just Not Done; many people felt concern about this. And, sure enough, one of the church elders, a dignified gentleman in a suit, got up and began excusing his way over to the newcomer. He reached the young man, and he did the one thing no one expected.

He sat down with the young man.

Can you see why? The story, of course, has a happy ending; the reason the pastor knew the story is that he had been that young man. And, had he not been welcomed, he might have had a very different life.

I hear a lot of stories about people being excluded and made unwelcome by Christians, and these disturb me. I am curious as to the experiences of our guests and seekers; have you seen this too? How has it affected you?

In light of consideration of this, I've asked staff to remove my icon. No, I'm not deconverting; I am, if anything, more zealous and more convinced than I was last year. However, I have concluded that throwing tidbits to the heathens over the walls is not an adequate witnessing technique, so I thought I'd come and join you all for a while.

You want a story seebs here you go....

I had been attending church of my own volition since I wasa child, I was confirmed at 12 and continued to attend church regularly. After a really bad time in my life, where I was beaten up, and generally treated like crap by a lot of people, I blamed God. How could he let this happen to a good Christian Girl like me, so, I turned my back on church and God and stopped going all together, but no matter how I tried to rage against God, my faith and everything, I still kept getting drawn back, little things would point me in the direction of my faith again. At about 21, I started attending church and exploring my faith again.

I fell pregnant at 22 with my daughter, her father and I split when I was 12 weeks gone. I decided I would keep my baby. I continued going to church and tried to ignore the disapproving glances as my stomach grew. My beautiful daughter was born on a Monday in the April, the following Sunday I took her to church and she received her very first blessing from the Vicar. That September, I had her christened in a lovely service and she was welcomed to the church officially. A few weeks later, I was coming out one Sunday and a couple of the old women were talking, as I went past, one said to the other that they could not believe that the Vicar christened bastards in their church.

As you can probably understand, I was devestated and did not go back for 5 years. Eventually, after talking at length with some people on CF, I started going back to Church in the next village, when I took Communion for the first time in 5 years I cried.

My daughter and I now attend this church instead of my village one we are welcomed with open arms and she sings in the choir. It just goes to show you, it is not just guests and outsiders who can experience bad things, but it also shows you that CF does do good.

You have probably seen me post this before, but I thought it was relevant to what you were asking

Stumpjumper · 03-09-2007, 05:18 AM

I'm glad you found a Church where you were welcomed Tawny. Your story has a happy ending

CF does do some good. I would agree with that but it also does some harm as well...

03-09-2007, 04:11 AM	#13
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	http://www.christianforums.com/t4945...outsiders.html A friend of mine told me a story, once. He heard it as part of a sermon a pastor preached. It used to be that people dressed up rather a lot more for church than they do now. And one day, when everyone was sitting neatly in rows, in their suits and their best dresses, and the service had already started, the doors at the back of the church opened. A man came in. He was a hippie. He had long hair. He wasn't wearing a suit. He may not have been quite as fresh as a person who'd showered recently would be. And he came in, and he looked around, and there were no spots in the pews at the back. So, while the sermon continued, he sort of edged forward, looking for a spot, and more and more people looked back at him, some of them staring openly. He finally just sat down, in one of the aisles, to listen. Now, this is just Not Done; many people felt concern about this. And, sure enough, one of the church elders, a dignified gentleman in a suit, got up and began excusing his way over to the newcomer. He reached the young man, and he did the one thing no one expected. He sat down with the young man. Can you see why? The story, of course, has a happy ending; the reason the pastor knew the story is that he had been that young man. And, had he not been welcomed, he might have had a very different life. I hear a lot of stories about people being excluded and made unwelcome by Christians, and these disturb me. I am curious as to the experiences of our guests and seekers; have you seen this too? How has it affected you? In light of consideration of this, I've asked staff to remove my icon. No, I'm not deconverting; I am, if anything, more zealous and more convinced than I was last year. However, I have concluded that throwing tidbits to the heathens over the walls is not an adequate witnessing technique, so I thought I'd come and join you all for a while.

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03-09-2007, 03:06 AM	#11
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	Did we ever get a clear answer as to who no_one was? I think it's interesting that, despite the hostile tone of them, many of the factual claims in no_one's criticism of murron turned out to be surprisingly accurate.

03-09-2007, 04:02 AM	#12
Stumpjumper Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The general vicinity of Philadelphia Posts: 4,734	Congrats Annabel Lee!

03-09-2007, 04:29 AM	#17
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	It can never be fixed. The formal heretics are a majority, and they are also the same people who find it crucial to exclude those they disagree with. The Catholics accepted disagreement some centuries back, although it wasn't always easy going, but the concept of "imperfect communion" is good enough that they can handle the obvious and immediate reality of non-Catholic Christians. A doctrine to the contrary cannot stand against discernment; as soon as you meet your first non-Catholic Christian, you know that they exist. But, right now, the various heresies that have to be accepted because those people provide ad revenue are here to stay. I don't think this issue will be fixed; it's been a problem for at least five years now, and the people who could do something about it either don't care or actively prefer it this way. Do keep in mind, no matter the public statements, there are plenty of people on staff who have affirmatively stated that one person or another "isn't Christian", even if that person accepts the Creed. As long as that's the case, the claims that no one is being called non-Christian are lies, plain and simple. The icon that looks sorta like a plus sign at CF is not the true Cross. It is a thing which attempts to serve in lieu of the Cross, and as such, I think it is probably formally an idol.

03-09-2007, 04:33 AM	#18
DougLDS Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: NOt here anymore Posts: 1,557	Just a reminder that there is a world outside the internet.....

03-09-2007, 05:18 AM	#20
Stumpjumper Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The general vicinity of Philadelphia Posts: 4,734	I'm glad you found a Church where you were welcomed Tawny. Your story has a happy ending CF does do some good. I would agree with that but it also does some harm as well...

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