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Old 09-04-2007, 12:09 PM   #181
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Completely classical, as there was no interruption in culture and government in the East. I also agree that the romans could have built it, if it were their style.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:23 PM   #182
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By the way, the romans knew about the pointed arch, and used it in their sewers. They didn't use it above ground for aesthetic reasons.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:42 PM   #183
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What is clear, however, is that the transformation of the late Roman into the post-Roman period witnessed a major change in the organisation of buildings, with the evolution of the Roman commander into what seems like a Dark Age chief.

The same evolution can be found at Binchester, where the bath-house of the commander's residence, which was built after about 360, changed radically in function and status. Some rooms became a smithy and a slaughterhouse. This was followed by a period of midden dumping, and finally the site became a wooden structure used for the working of antler. Late 4th century building activity (which probably runs well into the 5th century) can also be seen at Catterick and Carlisle - two of the main towns of the region.
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba63/feat1.shtml

Saw recently a discussion of the various Roman forts around Britain allegedly built to defend against Saxons. Wrong. They were port stores! Once the Romans went, trade collapsed - result Dark ages.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:48 PM   #184
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So just how dark were the Early Middle Ages (c. 400AD – c. AD1000)? Some interest has been expressed in the flat earth thread in a more in-depth look at current trends in medieval history, so here goes.

There are two schools of thought found in the academy roughly corresponding to whether the historian in question is a medievalist or classicist.

Most historians of the Early Middle Ages, typified by Roger Collins, take the view that they were not dark at all. They cite the wonderful objects found at Sutton Hoo, the mosaics of Ravenna’s churches, the Cathedral at Aachen, the numerous law codes, the spread of literacy and the formation of the people who would one day become Europe’s nation states. They can also point to the apogee of Byzantine civilisation under Basil II in the ninth century; the fact that it was a Frankish warlord, Charles Martel, who finally stopped the Muslim advance; and the rapid assimilation of new technology such as the heavy plough, stirrup, horse collar, horse shoe and mill.

Classical historians, like Bryan Ward-Perkins, tend to claim that the Early Middle Ages were dark, at least compared to the Roman Empire. They cite the collapse of central control in the west under the barbarian onslaught, the decline of literacy and loss of Greek, the reduction of trade, sharp falls in population density and the sheer amount of senseless destruction by the various tribes that fell on the Empire. The Vandals did not give their name for nothing.

Neither side follows Gibbon and blames Christianity for the ‘Dark Ages’. Indeed, Christianity is seen as the most important framework within which late-antique culture survived. It was also an essential factor in the spread of that culture into north-eastern Europe where the Romans had never taken it.

Both sides have part of the truth. The Roman Empire did fall in the West and this did lead to a serious reduction of material and intellectual culture. But the Empire had to fall for modern Europe to rise. Roman society was sclerotic, despotic and highly conservative. Innovation was rarely taken up. Much of the technology that revolutionised European agriculture in the fifth to thirteenth centuries was available to the Romans but they hardly used it. They had no desire to expand their borders and bring civilisation to the Germans and Scandinavians. Much of the pressure on the imperial borders was due to tribes wanting to join the Empire.

So the early Middle Ages started off dark with the great plagues, barbarian incursions and loss of elite culture. But they then took off at a far faster rate than the Romans had managed for centuries. You could call the Fall of the Roman Empire an episode in creative destruction.

Best wishes

James (pka Bede)

Read the first chapter, all about the Early Middle Ages, of God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science
The Middle Ages was wonderful for the Church and the State -- the ecclesiastical and feudal lords. They were the owners of the land and of the subjects in them. They were provided for; they were served; they had palaces built for them.Their earth was not a valley of tears-- a place of intellectual, economical, and moral degradation.

How did the Dark Ages started?

It started and increased as Christianity increased.
(The faith was made mandatory in the 4th century throughout the Roman empire by insame eastern emperors.) It started to lift in Italy with the creation of Republics and Communes from the 9th century on, and the creation of universities and craft centers. Most of Europe remained under the shadow until the 16th century or later.}

Christianity was the choosing of the way to heaven; hence life was devoted to the cares of heaven and the renunciation of the cares of the world. Thus the crafts and the arts were repudiated, ancient books of wisdom were burned, architectural masterpieces were torn down, scholastic learning was terminated, and all technological structures aged and died. Anything pagan/secular was trampled upon. So, the Europeans destroyed their own cultural traditions and life. As they became barbaric, there were also conquered by barbarians: they lost their estates, they lost all the civil rights that were part of the Roman republic, they lost their freedom. They became wretched subjects of lords, servants of masters. They knelt before their divine and human lords. This was their abject state, the darkness of their minds and spirit. The only thing they had left was the hope of an eternal life in the company of rabbi Jesus, King of the kingdom of God, after the end of the world, when they would be mercilessly judged.

That was the wonderful Dark Ages! And today? As Reverent Falwell said, We must bring America to its knees. He represents those who struggle for the return of the Dark Ages. Politically, our lives are already mortgaged to international banks, and civil liberty is being reduced by the day, as the lords increase their political power by the day. We already are in a new course of social disaster. The USA is the epicenter of the second Dark Ages.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:48 PM   #185
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I found it absolutely stunning and still have no idea how they keep that dome up.
IIUC, hollow bricks are a significant part of the reason.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:50 PM   #186
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By the way, the romans knew about the pointed arch, and used it in their sewers. They didn't use it above ground for aesthetic reasons.
Now that would be fascinating. Nothing I can see on google so could you give us a reference please?

Thanks

James
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:05 PM   #187
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By the way, the romans knew about the pointed arch, and used it in their sewers. They didn't use it above ground for aesthetic reasons.
Now that would be fascinating. Nothing I can see on google so could you give us a reference please?

Thanks

James
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica

And check references in that article. I was in Trier in August and the Basilica mentioned is very impressive. Of course Archimedes helped with the required geometry! (Not directly!)

The difference between Rome and the Dark Ages is about organisation, division of labour and cross fertilisation of ideas. Marc Anthony and Augustus fought with ten rowed ships for example. I don't remember the Vikings doing that!

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=143985&page=1

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I distinctly remember from a college lecture that the Doric-styled Greek Parthenon was built with inversely cambered columns designed to force eye-level perspective to see an aligned and falsely right angled ceiling line.
It only appears to be a true right angle, but the difference is something like a matter of feet.

I wonder if these Greek (pre-medieval) structures could have even been erected in the absence of calculations. I imagine the engineering and constructing business was impressively numbers driven even compared to modern standards.
(Also found a muslim site claiming they invented the gothic pointed arch!)
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:19 PM   #188
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Now that would be fascinating. Nothing I can see on google so could you give us a reference please?

Thanks

James
'fraid not. Not everything is on the internet. I saw it in a graduate level architecture course, the professor had photographed them. I believe it was in the south of france. I'll see if I can find my notes, but after 4 years and 4 moves I am not hopeful.

The egyptians knew about round arches, but only used them in utilitarian structures.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:26 PM   #189
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Amadeo digression split off here.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:31 PM   #190
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That thread on selective rationalism:

Brains shut down reasoning skills for partisans, Democrat or Republican (merged)

mentioning these articles:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11009379/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/200601...actsstudyfinds

The reasoning parts of the campaign workers' brains were active when they assessed contradictions in other candidates' policies, but not for those of their candidates.

So I think that this is a lesson to us all -- to be willing to assess our beliefs with the sort of critical sense that we use on others' beliefs.

But I doubt if either Augustine or Severus Sebokht would have gotten away with (say) analyzing the Trinity as critically as they had analyzed astrology -- they would likely have gotten in deep trouble if they had.

In fact, one has to marvel at the medieval Church's having just enough open-mindedness to allow the study of pagan philosophy when they were itchy sensitive about tiny details of such things as the Trinity.
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