TedM

You are right to be skeptical for the pre-Mark time period. Paul does refer to the apocalyptic Messiah a number of times, which is one of the sage criterion, but the wisdom-teacher evidence is shaky.

TedM

You don't understand the word "desperate"?

bacht

Diaspora Jews, maybe not. Palestinian Jews, maybe so. After the disappointment of the Hasmonean dynasty there may have been some seeking God's political intervention. Simon bar-Kochba was viewed by some as a messiah.

spin

You do understand the word "bullshit". Vacuously snide comments are an embarrassment. Why can you never answer a question asked of you in a meaningful way?


spin

Johnny Skeptic

Message to TedM: Many Jews were expecting a Messiah to eventually come, but what evidence was there at the time that a Messiah had come? Micah 5:2says that someone would come from Bethlehem who would become ruler in Israel. Jesus did not become ruler in Israel. Surely most Jews expected a ruler to come in this life, not in the next life.

What Old Testament prophecies did Jesus fulfill that would have convinced some people to believe that he was the Messiah? None.

The first century Christian church was very small and uninfluential, no doubt largely due to the fact that if Jesus existed, he did not perform any miracles. Local people would quickly have discredited claims of miracles. It is frequently not difficult to convince a very small group of people to believe absurd claims. Even today, some people believe that the earth is flat, and some people do not believe that men have landed on the moon.

The social advantages that Christianity offerred should not be underestimated. According to Rodney Stark in "The Rise of Christianity," Christianity was "a bargain," in large part due to the many social advantages that it offerred "in the here and now" compared to paganism.

We will probably never know all of the details regarding how and when Christianity started, and how and when many other religions started. People need to accept the fact that historical records do not exist for our convenience. I will never understand why many people just have to know what happened in ancient times regarding many issues.

TedM

What is nonsensical about my question? It was simple and very clear to most people that don't over-think the meaning of commonly used words--your specialty. Do you not understand what desperate means?

Thank you bacht for answering my simple question.

TedM

That may be what you or I think, but that is not what Paul and the other early epistle authors, and the gospel authors thought. And, for purposes of this discussion, that's all that matters


Curiosity.

Johnny Skeptic

But we cannot be reasonably certain what Paul, the Gospel authors, and the other early epistle authors believed. No original first century Bible manuscripts exist, and non-biblical sources do not adequately tell us how and when Christianity started. There is a reasonable possibility that 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 is an interpolation. The identities of the Gospel authors are unknown. No one knows where the Gospel authors got their information from. We cannot be reasonably certain that Peter was speaking for himself. How and whenever Christianity started, it was widely rejected during the first century. As I have said before, it is frequently easy to convince a very small group of people to believe improbable things. Even today, some people believe that the earth is flat, and that men have not landed on the moon.

You are simply guessing and speculating, and you will never be able to adequately resolve those issues. The issues of authorship, dating, and interpolations make accurately reconstructing how and when Christianity started impossible. Your curiosity is not sufficient reason for you to make things up.

If you read Earl Doherty's lastest book, you might find some answers to some of your questions. Right or wrong, Earl is very intelligent and well-read, and he has spent decades studying the historical/mythical Jesus issue. I am not promoting the historical Jesus theory or the mythical Jesus theory, but I am willing to concede the existence of a historical Jesus for the sake of argument.

spin

It assumes your conclusion as always. It might be vaguely meaningful to ask if "the Jews of the time were desperate", in which case you'd need to answer the question I posed to you: "Were the Jews of the time any different from any of the suppressed populations of the Roman empire?"

However, "desperate for a .. Messiah" is outside what we have the capabilities of answering. How would you test the issue? Some Jews looked forward to the coming of the messiah, but how many? Were these people desperate -- or any more desperate than anyone else? And were they desperate for a messiah? If we work from the period of Simeon bar Kochba, seen as the messiah by the famous rabbi Akiba, how much support did he have amongst the people? It's a dumb assumption-laden question that you asked, but you can't see the problem, probably because you haven't taken the time to look at issues outside the n.t. context.

Do you understand what starting with your conclusion means? Facile questions to hide behind are a waste of breath.


spin

TedM

They were. They were expecting a Messiah.

It is fine to ask questions but it appears likely to me that you never have enough evidence to conclude anything because you will always have another unanswered question. My conclusion is not just out of thin air--it's based on common sense--there were a lot of documented Messiah wanna-be's during this period in their history. Looks like a lot more than during any other period. To conclude that the Jews were desperate for a Messiah is not really a stretch at all. For mythicists this should be obvious--the creation of Christianity is dependent on such an assumption--they were so desperate that they created and followed a Messiah-martyr that lived, and died in the skies--very atypical of the traditional Messiah concept.