Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 01-13-2013, 06:28 PM

Apparently the redactor of Romans used a source that followed the masoretic understanding.

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Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I was referring to Romans which I thought was the issue in terms of the interpretation. The English in Romans looks like it reflects the Hebrew and targums, although the Greek might be different.

Yes, but Romans 4:3 quotes Gen 15:6 which is the object of my question.

Onias · 01-13-2013, 06:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Reviewing the Hebrew text of Genesis 15:6

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃

v' ha'amen b'Yahweh v' y'chashaba l'o tsĕdaqah:

'And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'(KJV)

The traditional understanding is that the LORD ('Yahweh') imputes Abraham's belief as an indication of Abraham's righteousness. And this clearly how the 'Christian' authors understood and employed this text.
The hang up here which you are pointing out, is the identification of whom is 'him' being referred to.
Is this 'him' Yahweh who is accounting Abraham to be righteous,
OR is it as you are suggesting, that it is the LORD (Yahweh) who is the 'him' who is finding Abraham to be righteous.
.
Based strictly on the linguistic construction of Gen. 15:6 the answer would be somewhat ambiguous, and persuasion as to the intent could swing either way.
But when looked at in the overall context of the Yahweh-Abraham relationship it is clear that the respect was mutual. Yahweh honors Abraham as being righteous and Abraham in turn honors Yahweh as being righteous. Thus Genesis 15:6 does not need to be held to indicate either the one or the other reading, as though they were in opposition. As each imputed or recognized the righteous nature of the other.

But there is no second 'he'' in the Hebrew verse. The traditional but incorrect reading has an interpolated 'he' and no semicolon. So It really reads:

And he believed in the LORD and counted it to him for righteousness.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on your translation here Onias.
In the construction of ויחשבה v'y'chashaba the second letter י yod is the masculine gender indicator which when so employed is consistently translated as 'he' in thousands of such Hebrew contructions.
Given that fact, it is doubtful that you will find many scholars of Hebrew that would support your rendering.

(actually there is no 'first' 'he' in the verse. in והאמן -v'ha'amen- literally 'and the believed', the 'he' is not written but is implied, and is supplied in the English rendering.)

Well, even if there is just one 'he' in this verse, it is clear that Abram is the subject of this sentence: And believed Yahweh and he (Abram) counted it to Him as righteousness. This is also Ramban's interpretation. See Ramban commentary on Torah.

Sheshbazzar · 01-13-2013, 06:45 PM

Again I reiterate that the overall Yahweh-Abraham relationship displays the mutual respect of Yahweh for Abraham, and of Abraham for Yahweh, each viewing the other as being righteous. Ramban's commentary cannot alter that fact.

BTW. To be clear, I am not a 'Christian' and I do not as a rule defend Christian interpretations.

Onias · 01-13-2013, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Again I reiterate that the overall Yahweh-Abraham relationship display the mutual respect of Yahweh for Abraham, and of Abraham for Yahweh, each viewing the other as being righteous. Ramban's commentary cannot alter that fact.

Even if you think thise shows mutual respect, it alters the traditionally accepted translation that supports Paul's faith theology. But in any case, the verse does not show mutual respect but only one's respect for the other, and it would not be unusual for Abram to praise Yahweh, as many Jews praised Hashem for his righteousness and/or justice throughout the Tanakh.

I suppose it is just your opinion that Ramban's words cannot alter any interpretation. I invite everybody to read his views See "The Torah: With Ramban's commentary, translated, annotated, and elucidated" ISBN: 1-57819-425-3, starting on page 347.

Sheshbazzar · 01-13-2013, 07:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Onias

And believed Yahweh and he (Abram) counted it to Him as righteousness.

When you need to resort to using (+++++ ) brackets to insert something into the text you only prove that it is not there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

But in any case, the verse does not show mutual respect but only one's respect for the other,

Only because that is the way that you choose to read it. And many other verses of the same story indicate that mutual respect between Abraham and Yahweh did in fact exist, and was the basis of their unique relationship.

Ramban's words might alter someone's interpretation, but cannot alter the words of the actual text.
There is no word or name 'Abram' to be found written in Genesis 16:5 and neither Ramban or you have any authority to insert what is most certainly not there.

Onias · 01-13-2013, 07:11 PM

Another point to make is that if Gen 15:6 supports a theology of righteousness based on faith rather than obedience, why did it take over 3000 years for somebody (namely Paul) to make that claim. In actuality, Gen 15:6 is just a passing remark on the righteousness of God (David also made many such remarks), and this verse had never been developed into a 'justification by faith' theology until Paul. (Also note how Paul mutilated just about every other OT verse he quoted as this was his modus operandi.) Additionally, in Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews, he finds this verse unremarkable because he makes no comment upon it whatsoever.

Onias · 01-13-2013, 07:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

And believed Yahweh and he (Abram) counted it to Him as righteousness.

When you need to resort to using (+++++ ) brackets to insert something into the text you only prove that it is not there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

But in any case, the verse does not show mutual respect but only one's respect for the other,

Only because that is the way that you choose to read it. And many other verses of the same story indicate that mutual respect between Abraham and Yahweh did in fact exist, and was the basis of their unique relationship.

Rambam's words might alter someone's interpretation, but cannot alter the words of the actual text.
There is no word or name 'Abram' to be found written in Genesis 16:5 and neither Rambam or you have any authority to insert what is most certainly not there.

His name is Ramban, not Rambam, aka Nachmonidies.
Ramban is not inserting words into the text; he is interpreting it as written in Hebrew.
Inserting brackets is a common scholarly practice to show that a word is implied but not in the actual text.
Abram is implied in the text because of the preceding verse, Gen 15:5

You mind seems to be vehemently made up on this, but I invite others to read Ramban's 13th century commentary at "The Torah: With Ramban's commentary, translated, annotated, and elucidated" ISBN: 1-57819-425-3, page 347

Sheshbazzar · 01-13-2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Another point to make is that if Gen 15:6 supports a theology of righteousness based on faith rather than obedience, why did it take over 3000 years for somebody (namely Paul) to make that claim.

We do not have every writing that was written during those 3000 years, nor access to every argument that was ever made.
'Paul's' is simply one that survived, it is no indication that his was the first such argument ever to be made.

Both the Promises contained in The Torah, and in the Prophets are clear that the GENTILES -as Gentiles- would be reconciled to Yahweh -without any necessity of first becoming circumcised Jews. That is without the obligations of obedience to specifically Jewish Laws.
The 'Olam ha'ba' 'The Age to Come' and 'The Kingdom of Elohim' was -IS- to be filled with Gentiles praising the Elohim of Abraham -the Father of many Gentiles, the 'goyim' > the Nations.
A lot of JEWS recognized and acknowledged this -Scriptural FACT- long before Paul was even born. These were the ones that knew better than to try to force circumcision or Laws made specifically for JEWS upon the Gentiles that lived among them. The ger toshavim were to live as gentiles and unmolested.
NOT be forced to become circumcised wherby they would no longer be 'gentiles' but Law keeping Jews in a violation of the Promises.

Onias · 01-13-2013, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Another point to make is that if Gen 15:6 supports a theology of righteousness based on faith rather than obedience, why did it take over 3000 years for somebody (namely Paul) to make that claim.

We do not have every writing that was written during those 3000 years, nor access to every argument that was ever made.
'Paul's' is simply one that survived, it is no indication that his was the first such argument ever to be made.
Both The Law and the Prophets indicate that the GENTILES -as Gentiles- would be reconciled to Yahweh -without any necessity of first becoming circumcised Jews. The 'Olam ha'ba' 'The Age to Come' and 'The Kingdom of Elohim' was -IS- to be filled with Gentiles praising the Elohim of Abraham -the Father of many Gentiles the 'goyim' > the Nations.
A lot of JEWS recognized and acknowledged this fact long before Paul was even born. These are the ones that knew better than to try to force circumcision or the Laws made for JEWS upon the Gentiles that lived among them.

You are being vague. If this is so, then please provide specific evidence of others postulating a theology of '"justification by faith" rather than by works of obedience to Torah prior to Paul's 'epistle' to the Romans.

And recall that Abram was blessed because he was obedient and not merely because he believed. Gen 26:5

Sheshbazzar · 01-13-2013, 07:57 PM

The fullness of Law of Yahweh was not revealed until the time of Moses according to Scripture.
Righteous men before this time were justified by Yahweh without the obligations of Moses' Laws.

Abram was obedient in that he was willing to obey the voice of Yahweh, even to the point of offering up Isaac his only son on the altar.
This was not in obedience to any Law that he had received, but rather in sure confidence that the same voice that had guided him, would see to it that his son Isaac would survive.
He was so tested and his faith in Yahweh was so proven unshakable. Therefore Yahweh blessed him. Not for obedience to the dictates and details of a Jewish Law still yet to be revealed. Abraham was justified by faith in Yahweh his Elohim, and found to be righteous by Yahweh without the works of the Law.

01-13-2013, 07:11 PM	#16
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	One more point Another point to make is that if Gen 15:6 supports a theology of righteousness based on faith rather than obedience, why did it take over 3000 years for somebody (namely Paul) to make that claim. In actuality, Gen 15:6 is just a passing remark on the righteousness of God (David also made many such remarks), and this verse had never been developed into a 'justification by faith' theology until Paul. (Also note how Paul mutilated just about every other OT verse he quoted as this was his modus operandi.) Additionally, in Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews, he finds this verse unremarkable because he makes no comment upon it whatsoever.

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01-13-2013, 06:45 PM	#13
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Again I reiterate that the overall Yahweh-Abraham relationship displays the mutual respect of Yahweh for Abraham, and of Abraham for Yahweh, each viewing the other as being righteous. Ramban's commentary cannot alter that fact. BTW. To be clear, I am not a 'Christian' and I do not as a rule defend Christian interpretations.

01-13-2013, 07:57 PM	#20
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The fullness of Law of Yahweh was not revealed until the time of Moses according to Scripture. Righteous men before this time were justified by Yahweh without the obligations of Moses' Laws. Abram was obedient in that he was willing to obey the voice of Yahweh, even to the point of offering up Isaac his only son on the altar. This was not in obedience to any Law that he had received, but rather in sure confidence that the same voice that had guided him, would see to it that his son Isaac would survive. He was so tested and his faith in Yahweh was so proven unshakable. Therefore Yahweh blessed him. Not for obedience to the dictates and details of a Jewish Law still yet to be revealed. Abraham was justified by faith in Yahweh his Elohim, and found to be righteous by Yahweh without the works of the Law.

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