jakejonesiv

Holding is just following in an honored orthodox Christian tradition of ad homenien against his opponents. Just read what Tertullian wrote about Marcion.

First he attacks Marcion's home town.

I could go on from there, but the ludicrous attacks are hilarious. Apologists like JP Holding have been following Tertullian's tactics, snout to tail, ever since.

Jake

Celsus

Yeah, it's a shame since it's kind of embarassing how childish the taunts were when I actually went back and read them. I blame the folly of my youth for wasting my time on it

Sabine Grant

The only way they could "breed any confidence" in anyone would be if that anyone were to have swallowed and digested JPH's claims that he is relying on the "riposte" style, one he believes to be supported by the Bible. Such claim was refuted by Christians who certainly do not abide to the notion that "we catch flies with vinegar". Unfortunately, when one uses the typical arguments of " The Bible tells me..." or "God tells me", we are bound to hit a brick wall .

In the big picture, as we consider the number of atrocities committed under the above arguments, one ego inflated internet preacher/apologist spamming the web with his delusions and allegedly delivered by god license to resort to infantile verbal abuse, is nothing to be agitated about.

JPH thrives on attention, positive and negative. Do not give him any. Too late to rescue his fans who have become his co dependents. The ones I have known during my years as a T Webber are generally social misfits who gravitate around his persona because he has convinced them he is a person of great importance. Some similarities here to the way a cult leader will interact with his devout followers.

IMO there are much bigger fish to fry than JPH.

grog225

I don't know about this website, but I've seen plenty of refutations. Robert Price has published one, Earl Doherty has one on his website. In a way, your complaint is a red herring because, typically, forums such as this support dialogue between users, not someone in abstentia. So it would be unfair to mount a thorough refutation of Holdings points here when he isn't here to defend. So unless he is around...

If someone want to defend one of his controversial claims, then put it up and let it be discussed. I'm sure there'd be plenty commentary of varying cogency.

dog-on

Start a new thread and post one. Should be a hoot!

gupwalla

Back in college, we used to tie the belt from our bathrobe on the door knob to let our roommate and dormmates know we had company over.

I'm glad to see the practice has such a long and well-documented pedigree.

JoeWallack

JW:
Who?

Lord Moldybutt's (Occam's Razor bifurcates down a slippery slope) scholarship is very good by Internet Standards and very bad by professional standards. He and his minyans always remind me of the classic scene from Taxi where the Reverend Jim has just gotten emotional over a cause (doesn't matter which one) he wants to lead, leaps onto a table and shouts, "They'll soon not forget the name of...name of...uh...hmmm":

Alex: (With the original Picard face palm) Oh Jim.

The Reverend Jim: (Pointing at Alex excitedly) See! It's spreading already!

Holding is very intelligent but if you argue with him just keep in mind that he is a professional Apologist so his primary objective is trying to create doubt as to Bible errancy. If your primary objective is to evaluate Bible errancy, he is not the person to do it with (inefficient).



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

DCHindley

I poked around a bit.

Tektonics.org is the web name of Tekton Apologetics Ministries Inc, based in Ocoee, FL, halfway between Orlando and Apopka, FL. It was formally incorporated as a not-for-profit corp on 4/28/2000. The officers were Robert Turkel, Keven Spires and Warren French. They don't file a 990 tax form because they have revenues less than $25,000. This might explain why he seeks donations. He is aso said to be presently operating a "financial services" business, which probably means he sells casualty or possibly life insurance as an independent agent.

The address is that of a roughly 1,800 Sq Ft, 3 BR, 2 bath private residence built in 1991, valued at $115,000 by the county auditor in 2008. I'm going to step out on a limb and assume it is Holding's own house. That is a decent house, but not a mansion (I live in a roughly equivalent house here in Warren, Ohio, although it is worth more here). For that area of Florida, that's fairly big (I used to live in Orlando - Belle Isle - and know that area pretty well, although that development didn't even exist when I moved to Cape Canaveral in the early 80s, it was either farm land or orchards then). FWIW, comedian Jim Varney was a native of Apopka, FL.

He used to work for the FL Dept of Corections at the Lake Correctional Institute, Clermont, FL, where he even received recognition in 1999 for lowering the rate of unreturned library books. He claims he has a MA degree in library science. All I know is his job at the prison ended, he says he voluntarily resigned or retired as part of a cost savings effort by the DOC. That suggests he received early retirement benefits (usually quite a bit less than retiring at the regular time) and possibly also a cash buy-out (it may not have been that much).

There is a YouTube video of someone who claims to be a friend of Robert Turkel, and says he was born James Patrick Holding, but it was changed to Robert Turkel in his youth, then changed back to James Patrick Holding as an adult. There is a MyLife page for a Robert Patrick Turkel in Ocoee, FL, showing his age as 41. This is more than likely the apologist.

There is a Dr Robert A Turkel, 74, a retired cardiologist, in Tampa, FL, who does appear to be related to Holding. A Dr Keven Spires practices Urology in Brookfield near Tampa, FL. Warren French was active in decorating a float sponsored by the Orange County Library System in 2006, but he seems to be off the Radar. He may live in Clarcona, where the ministry has its Post Office box. His mother goes by Turkel, but his sister goes by Holding, both living in Orlando area.

If he Holding/Turkel legally changed his name to J P Holding (again?) around 2002 (?), my guess is he was adopted, possibly by a step father, but reconnected with his birth father later in life and/or had a falling out with his step father. That might explain why he presently doesn't like using the name Turkel.

Hey, if you ask me, he seems like a stressed-out guy who is trying desperately to make sense of his world, and he decided that it had to involve a literal, fundamentalist Christian understanding of God. I understand he is a Baptist.

The Orlando Florida area is not, belive it or not, really part of the Bible Belt (about 60% of the population in the mid 1980s were transplants from other states - the same proportion as California FWIW). I would not describe it as particularly sophisticated (although the suburbs north of town in Seminole County, like Winter Park, Altamonte Springs and Longwood, can be fairly swanky), but rather more folksy. The area is known for growing juice oranges, pumpkins and beef cattle.

Of course, Disney World is just south of Apopka and West of Orlando, and a big part of the local economy, and so Orlando has an economy built around entertainment. When I lived there, a Christian con-artist got a number of churches and their members to invest in a proposed Christian center that would promote Christian values, Christian art, and a Christian retirement community. It turned out to be a scam that raked in $Millions. Perhaps a segment of the local population is, um, gullible as well.

Why are folks letting this guy get under their skins?!?!

DCH

John Kesler

DC,
Some of the answers to your questions are on Holding's Web site, plus one off-site family tree:

One of my biggest problems with him is that I don't know that he's sincere about what he says. For example, his flagship article, and the name of one of his books, is The Impossible Faith. As the article states, with my emphasis:

However, by his own admision, he has a contingency plan just in case Christianity is false:

If OSHA declared that it was impossible--not just unlikely, but impossible--that a workplace contained hazardous materials, but then made a contingency plan in case it did, how credible would OSHA's declaration be?

He has also admitted that he only prays for five seconds a day and reads the Bible (devotionally, I assume, rather than researching for articles) for five minutes a day. (Credit Farrell Till for this link.)

DCHindley

Well, got a few facts wrong. I thought Susan Turkel was his mother, but Susan Holding was his Sister, not his Wife. I thought Rosalind Turkel was his Mother, not his Grandmother. Wasn't sure where Julius Turkel came into picture.

Still works out to be an interesting family relationship between Turkels and Holdings, though. If his mother was married to David Holding, she reverted to her maiden name and changed Robert's name to Turkel as well. Now Robert claims it back. There must be some sort of family tension going on. Cannot find anything about David Holding, without knowing his middle name or initial.

What surprised me was that his mother's family is Jewish, and maybe the friction is religious in nature.

DCH