rainbow walking

Hello Jesse,
Glad to hear from you again. I'm just curious why you say your love for god isn't selfish? Not to pick at nits but you state that you love him "because he first loved you." Maybe I'm missing something here, (and I usually do), but that seems about par for the course for humans. It would be more impressive, in relation to selfishness, had you loved him first...before he loved you...yes? Not that I don't blame you...in lieu of all the additional blessings and such that you say you derive from this relationship I see no reason to blame you. If I "KNEW" such a god existed and loved me, I'd likely reciprocate as well.

But, as you may have noticed, until such a day arrives, I have decided to hypothesize a god more logically consistent to the reality of existence as seen by the free thinker. He/she/it has been dubbed RSB for "Rainbow's Supreme Being" and actually rewards those who live by their reasoning faculties, rather than faith. Our hypothetical god is much less prevalent in our personal existence, which is consistent with his infinite wisdom, preferring to allow us the autonomy to self generate our own destinies, respecting only our determination to remain consistent to the reality he began with an infusion of energy and properties that have, over a very long time, obviated in humans endowed with our unique faculties. He has left no moral prescriptions to follow nor does he condemn us as morally bankrupt at birth but wants us to gain the wisdom of self control and devise our own moral compass along the way...knowing in his infinite wisdom that eventually our compass will be identical to his own. Un-like your god, RSB does not promise us immediate gratification except that which we earn by the employment of our reasoning faculties. As part of our hypothesis we hold forth the premise, to be tested historically, that once our future brethren, by the sheer force of their collective wills and rational faculties, have arrived at the gates of his abode...in living fleshly colors...he will then see to it that the records are opened and everyone who remained consistent to their rational natures as man down thru history will be re-assimilated and join our brethren to stand by his side as his equals. Those who succumb to the Siren's call of faith will simple remain as they were...a dis-assembled collection of sub-atomic particles.

If you would like to compare your god to this hypothesis I shall be glad for the opportunity to have my theory falsified.

Jack the Bodiless

Now how did I know that you would back down from demonstrating that your God IS the "God of the Bible", and explaining what the phrase "God of the Bible" actually means?

The Bible contains falsehoods. Therefore the "God of the Bible" does not exist. Of course, this still leaves room for a God somewhat resembling the one depicted in certain Biblical passages: the one that more clued-up Christians (the ones aware of the Bible's problems) claim to have "inspired" parts of the Bible.
I gather that most Christians "pray for guidance" and then study the Bible and convince themselves that there's an explanation for any difficulty they read. However, here you seem to be offering to directly quote the voice of God speaking in your head. By all means, let's test God's knowledge of the Bible!

...Maybe on another thread, in the "Biblical Criticism" forum?

blastula

Another one for Jesse Leigh.

I won't ask you prove the biblical God's existence, but I'd like to ask you about these communications you say you have with God. My question is, how did you prove to yourself that these communications were in reality you talking with God as opposed to any other possible explanation for what's going on in your mind? Take me through the rational process for arriving at your conclusion.

Carin Nel

Am I now out of place for answering ? I'm sure Jesse Leigh would agree. Maybe she can add on. I don't even mind correction!

JEST2ASK : John 3:16 as a basis …"For God so loved the world (Gr. kosmos--social system) that He gave His only begotten Son (Jesus is and was and always will be the only begotten Son of God. Men never wil be begotten or born by God in the same sense as Jesus was, for their sonship is on a different basis-that of adoption, not an actual begetting and becoming into existance) that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish [COLOR="SeaGreen"][COLOR="Black"]( The loss of the soul in eternal hell ), but have everlasting life ( Unknown time. The life itself is eternal. Man's posession of does not change its nature of existence, its eternal whether man ever gets it or not. It's still eternal whether man loses it or not, and it's only in Jesus Christ. 1 John 5:11-12, 6:27

If the individuals in the "what if " questions believers in Jesus Christ, the it could be true using John 3:16 as basis.

JEST2ASK : How did God begat Jesus …?
By the Holy Spirit He planted the Seed of the Living Word into her womb - John 1:14 "The Word was made flesh"

JEST2ASK :[ How was God’s Love for the World … demonstrated by the gift of Jesus?

In human terms - to sacrifice an only child for a criminal who hates you is inconceivable, but if you're God it's comprehendable, hey?
I don't think our human minds can even begin to comprehend the whole spiritual implication it entails, so whatever I write here will not do justice to reality. My English is too limited and my human mind just too limited to get the bigger picture. I can only try to grasp what He says in His word. Who can fathom the greatness of God's love for a dying world that hates Him? I sure can't. His only Son (God Himself) had to reconcile mankind to Himself again by becoming flesh, fully meet the demands of the Law and represent both man and God,dying on a cross and everything that entailed, letting man free. This way God could be free from all accusations of injustice in forcing another to do what He Himself would not do, and His holy law, justice, and form of government would be magnified before all creation in all eternity.
When Satan put to death the innocent, sinless Christ, the court of heaven cancelled all his claims, and pseudo-sovereignty over his victoms. Now he holds a false outhority over them and his chief method is intimidation. All believers have the poers and attorney to act in Christ's place now on earth. ( Ma. 16:17-18; Jn.14:12-15)

Luci

Satan put to death the innocent, sinless christ?

What happened to John 3:16?

Mageth

So, a "God Spirit" impregnated a human woman, from whom was born a man-god...

I hope you recognize that that's a common motif in ancient mythologies.

Jesse Leigh

Evening Rainbow!

It's good to hear from you again too. It hasn't been possible for me to answer everything asked of me here because the administration takes exception to/with the way I present things, and labels it as "preaching" rather than discussion. So... let's see if this stays here, or ends up in "Elsewhere" too.

Rainbow: It is GOD who says that we love Him "because He first loved us." Consider:

1 John 4 (Amplified Bible)

"1 BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

2 By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source];

3 And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world.

4 Little children, you are of God [you belong to Him] and have [already] defeated and overcome them [the agents of the antichrist], because He Who lives in you is greater (mightier) than he who is in the world.

5 They proceed from the world and are of the world; therefore it is out of the world [its whole economy morally considered] that they speak, and the world listens (pays attention) to them.

6 We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him].

8 He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.

9 In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him.

10 In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another.

12 No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us!

13 By this we come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we abide (live and remain) in Him and He in us: because He has given (imparted) to us of His [Holy] Spirit.

14 And [besides] we ourselves have seen (have deliberately and steadfastly contemplated) and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son [as the] Savior of the world.

15 Anyone who confesses (acknowledges, owns) that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides (lives, makes His home) in him and he [abides, lives, makes his home] in God.

16 And we know (understand, recognize, are conscious of, by observation and by experience) and believe (adhere to and put faith in and rely on) the love God cherishes for us. God is love, and he who dwells and continues in love dwells and continues in God, and God dwells and continues in him.

17 In this [union and communion with Him] love is brought to completion and attains perfection with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment [with assurance and boldness to face Him], because as He is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].

19 We love Him, because He first loved us.

20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.

21 And this command (charge, order, injunction) we have from Him: that he who loves God shall love his brother [believer] also."


To all others who have enquired of me in this thread: The answers to all of your questions concerning Communion with GOD are in the above passage. I could put them in my own words, but why would that matter? The source of anything I would say is here and is more reliable than I.

When we believe in and confess Christ as our Lord and Savior, He makes His home with us, as does our Father in Heaven. Is it too difficult a concept then to conceive of our communicating with One Whom indwells us?

To try to explain the "process" to someone who has no knowledge or experience (yet) of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is pointless. I mean no disrespect to anyone by saying this, it's just a fact.

"When the student is ready the Teacher will appear," is a true statement, and is applicable to the questions you raise concerning Communion with God.

I hope this helps a little. - Jesse.

Astreja

You are aware, Jesse, that there are mystical experiences outside the scope of the Judeo-Christian mythos? I have had such experiences and do not associate them with the same gods that you worship. In fact, I don't associate them with any particular god. They are natural brain-states that can easily be attained through consistent meditation.

In other words, you and I may very well share identical spiritual experiences yet interpret them in radically different ways according to the beliefs that we have packed in our respective suitcases.

The major problems that I have with Christian doctrine are the sheer absurdity of a self-sacrificing god, and the even more absurd and slanderous concept of "original sin" which the sacrifice purports to eliminate. I adore the "feed the hungry, clothe the naked" directive because it speaks to our common humanity and shows love in action. I despise the concept of Hell and the fear that it implants in the lives of so many.

The Abrahamic religions, with their genocidal "Us vs. Everyone Else" tribalism, have interfered in human development rather than accelerating it. I find it difficult to believe that such teachings are divine in any large degree, and rather suspect that they are entirely manmade for the purpose of controlling the masses.

Blind faith is not a virtue. That is why I find RBW's god-with-intellectual-integrity much more plausible than the gods of the Bible. I can't comprehend an all-powerful being setting up such a convoluted reward-and-punishment system, nor can I comprehend why it would want to be worshipped by infantilized and terrified followers who think that they were born evil. If there is a universal god, I trust that it's intelligent enough to respect me for what I am.

rainbow walking

Hello Again Jesse,
I know it's difficult, sometimes, to respond to questions about your beliefs without referring your questioner to specific biblical verses. I think, (hope), that as long as the verses you wish to present are directly related to the questions asked or the theme of the thread...and kept to a minimum...that the mods, (and mods forgive my ignorance here if I speak out of line...just basing this on my experience here), aren't likely to ship your individual response off to another forum. If, however, you START a thread trying to prove or argue for a specific god's existence, that incorporates alot of scripture and comes across as being "preachy" or bible thumping, it is likely to get moved. I hope you can grasp the relative difference?

Now, having spoken my opinion on that matter, let's look at your reply. Unless I'm mis-understanding your meaning here, it reads to me that you are saying:

1. That YOU did not actually love god of your own volition

2. That the love YOU feel you have for god was instilled in you

3. And this instilling was itself an act of God

Is that a correct reading of your position?

Would I then be errant in stating it thusly: God is LOVING himself through you?

Would that be an adequate description/interpretation of this collection of verses you supplied?

Now, waxing philosophical here, as I often over-do...could this then be concieved/stated/percieved that a creator god created man to love himself through, perhaps even vicariously so? Just throwing this out to get your opinion on...not meant to be taken as a direct challenge.



Well, beleive it or not, it MATTERS alot Jesse because you should know that various minds can interpret biblical text differently. Just a friendly suggestion, (and I know it can get tedious at times but since you feel compelled to witness that shouldn't be a problem), if you would explain, in your own words, what you think those verses mean and how they apply to the question you are attempting to answer...it would go a long way towards eliminating many mis-understandings, that may result from expecting atheists and agnostics to arrive at the same interpretations of the quoted text as you have.

But Jesse, how do you KNOW this indwelling is an actual literally existing god and not your own desire for one, being fueled by all these biblically interpreted promises and claims that serve to fan the flames, so to speak, of your imagination? If, as you say, you are communicating with that which lives/indwells your own persona, how do you distinguish this communication from the voice of your own imagination? Does your imagination come into play at all in this communication or do you literally recognize a distinct and unique voice/feeling/mood/emotion from those you would normally experience in any other transaction or thought process that would involve your cognitive faculties in communication.

For instance, when you read or are musing on something internally in your own cogitations, if your mind works anything like my own, you likely have your own unique "voice" that has all the appearance of putting an internal sound and pronounciation to the words you're reading or thoughts you're cogitating upon. So, if this is consistent with everyone elses experiences of thinking/reading/contemplating within your own mind, is it then the case that these "communications" you're having with god, (as this alleged indwelling spirit within you), are actually distinct from and unique to any other internal "voices" you may percieve/imagine or employ in any other brain/thought activity? If so, how do you know? What is the distinction?

I don't know that to be the case at all Jesse...i.e. that any attempt to explain is pointless. If that were the case why would you, or any believer for that matter, bother to witness at all? Maybe some of the questions and responses you get when you do attempt to expand on these experiences makes you feel it is so, but you never can tell when someone , maybe even someone not directly involved in the discussion, (you do know there are often many lurkers, perhaps undecided lurkers), who may be following your responses without ever making a contribution to the thread who will glean something useful from your attempts to articulate these experiences. And, in discussions like these, you never know who is the Teacher and who the Student...yes? And there are those who will see your remarks about Teacher/Student as condescending anyway, no mattaer how nicely you try to say it.

Now Jesse, I will mention, just in passing, that you failed to respond to the hypothesis, (which is the central theme of THIS thread), or the challenge this hypothesis presents your view of god. Maybe an over-sight on your part or an issue of time or some such, but it is considered a matter of internet/forum etiquette to employ some degree of quid pro quo in these discussions...don't you think?

Carin Nel

Yes, Satan killed Jesus through various people who accused Him and put Him to death, just like He tried to kill Him as a baby whith all the 2 year old and younger boys through king Herod and various other occasions. Satan did not know Christ would rise again on the third day and still fulfill John 3:16.