Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 03-11-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

I find it curious that some people celebrate as "Christianity" what might better be called "deistic materialism" or "deistic naturalism".

It is a rather pathetic "triumph" that requires denying important parts of one's traditional creed, notably, miracles.

Yeah, well you can start by telling everybody how you find Thomas Jefferson "pathetic".

Thomas II · 03-12-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleTim

This was originally posted on Christianitytoday's website. Any thoughts or links to counterpositions?

LittleTim
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THE VICTORY OF REASON: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success
Rodney Stark
Random House, 304 pages, $25.95

Rodney Stark is at it again. After two recent volumes extolling the benefits of monotheism and the rise of Christianity via its caring networks of interpersonal relations, the brash sociologist now turns to Christianity's support for reason.

Stark's argument is relentless: Christian theology, culminating in the great thinkers of the Middle Ages, such as Thomas Aquinas, inculcated trust in reason as a gift of God. On that basis, Christianity sustained a faith in progress that could easily morph into scientific and social innovations. The same trust in reason fueled a politics of human freedom and an economics of capitalist creativity.

Against the claim that Western progress occurred only as religion was overcome, Stark is unequivocal: "Nonsense. The success of the West, including the rise of science, rested entirely on religious foundations, and the people who brought it about were devout Christians."

The Victory of Reason is another bold, sharply argued defense of the Christian faith's social benefits. It is also an in-your-face challenge to antireligious assumptions of the modern academy. Disconcertingly, Stark argues without qualification, nuance, and the balancing of perspectives that academics love so much. Nonetheless, he may be right.

...And I thought all along that the the main teachings of Jesus were to love one another as we love ourselves, and to love nothing more than God...
Did Christianity accomplish that?

judge · 03-12-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

I find it curious that some people celebrate as "Christianity" what might better be called "deistic materialism" or "deistic naturalism".

But did these things come out of a vacuum?

If you find it curious then perhaps you need to re-think your definition of "christian".

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

It is a rather pathetic "triumph" that requires denying important parts of one's traditional creed, notably, miracles.

Who appointed you arbiter of the bible or christian theology?

There are many who follow the teaching of christ who see the miracles as figurative rather than literal.

IOW how is it that you think that only one who holds to traditional creeds can be a christian?

lpetrich · 03-13-2006, 04:14 PM

(I find it curious that some people celebrate as "Christianity" what might better be called "deistic materialism" or "deistic naturalism".)

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

But did these things come out of a vacuum?

No, from rediscovered pagan philosophy, like Aristotle's. St. Thomas Aquinas's philosophy was heavily derivative of Aristotle's.

Quote:

If you find it curious then perhaps you need to re-think your definition of "christian".

If one wants to stretch out Xianity, sure; like including the possibility of being a Xian atheist.

Quote:

Who appointed you arbiter of the bible or christian theology?

I don't have to be appointed as anything to work out conclusions.

Quote:

There are many who follow the teaching of christ who see the miracles as figurative rather than literal.

How many?

Quote:

IOW how is it that you think that only one who holds to traditional creeds can be a christian?

If you stretch your definitions enough, you can jump around to any position that's expedient.

judge · 03-13-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

No, from rediscovered pagan philosophy, like Aristotle's. St. Thomas Aquinas's philosophy was heavily derivative of Aristotle's.

.

The obvious rebuttal here is that csince in ancient greece never operated in the same manner that it did in europe later on.
If all that was necessary for science to become a self sustaining enterprise (to quote Jaki) was pagan philosophy then it would have developed in areas dominated by (so called) pagan philosophy.

But this is not the case, it only happned once in history and in that case in a culture that had been permeated with christian ideas.

No Robots · 03-13-2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

If you stretch your definitions enough, you can jump around to any position that's expedient.

What you're doing is compressing the definition of "Christian" to create your own convenient little strawman. Answer my question: why don't you tell us how "pathetic" Thomas Jefferson is for rejecting miracles, yet still calling himself a Christian?

show_no_mercy · 03-13-2006, 08:16 PM

The only reason that there's a correlation between Christianity and Science is that all of the people who were literate had some affiliation with the Church. The entire point of literacy in the "West" was to read the bible.

show_no_mercy · 03-13-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

why don't you tell us how "pathetic" Thomas Jefferson is for rejecting miracles, yet still calling himself a Christian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

judge · 03-13-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

The only reason that there's a correlation between Christianity and Science is that all of the people who were literate had some affiliation with the Church. The entire point of literacy in the "West" was to read the bible.

Are you arguing that literacy led to science?

If not then what are you arguing?

judge · 03-13-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

What you're doing is compressing the definition of "Christian" to create your own convenient little strawman. Answer my question: why don't you tell us how "pathetic" Thomas Jefferson is for rejecting miracles, yet still calling himself a Christian?

What he seems to be doing is promoting, or at least accepting the institutional churches definition. Despite the fact that from all we know this was not Jesus's definition

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03-13-2006, 08:16 PM	#47
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	The only reason that there's a correlation between Christianity and Science is that all of the people who were literate had some affiliation with the Church. The entire point of literacy in the "West" was to read the bible.

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