Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cege · 01-26-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Josephus states otherwise

Do you have a quote or direct reference to Josephus stating the iron legs represented Rome?

I think Josephus' position was that the iron legs represented Greece.

arnoldo · 01-26-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

I'm sorry for jumping onto this tangent, but let's be fair and reasonable to what standards we adopt.

It's my fault, i should have posted comment #159 on a different thread.

arnoldo · 01-26-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Josephus states otherwise

Do you have a quote or direct reference to Josephus stating the iron legs represented Rome?

I think Josephus' position was that the iron legs represented Greece.

Hyppolytus ( 170-236 AD) directly stated the iron legs were the present Roman Empire, the feet (10) toes is the empire to be He gave the following interpretation of Daniel:

Quote:

"The golden head of the image is identical with the lioness, by which the Babylonians were represented.

The golden shoulders and the arms of silver are the same with the bear, by which the Persians and Medes are meant.

The belly and thighs of brass are the leopard, by which the Greeks who ruled from Alexander onwards are intended.

The legs of iron are the dreadful and terrible beast, by which the Romans who hold the empire now are meant.

The toes of clay and iron are the ten horns which are to be.

The one other little horn springing up in their midst is the antichrist.

The stone that smites the image and breaks it in pieces, and that filled the whole earth, is Christ, who comes from heaven and brings judgment on the world."

Quote:

Josephus undestand the the book of Daniel was NOT fulfilled simply because the Roman Empire existed, it was prophecy for the very distant future.
"Though these dreams and visions all concern events in the future, there is considerable variation both in the timescale involved and in the scope of the events predicted. Some dreams predict events for the immediate future, some for the more distant future, and some for the very distant future. The dream of Pharaoh's butler indicated that he would be release from prison 'within three days' (Ant. 2.65).

Cege · 01-26-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Hyppolytus ( 170-236 AD) directly stated the iron legs were the present Roman Empire, the feet (10) toes is the empire to be He gave the following interpretation of Daniel:

But I asked for where Josephus stated that the iron legs represented Rome.

spin · 01-26-2008, 01:37 PM

What neither Josephus nor Hippolytus were aware of was the interrelationship between the various visions and the statue dream. Both of them were separated from the period the visions all refer to and could not see the applicability.

This is one reason I've challenged arnoldo to deal with the material I posted relating to Daniel 11.

spin

arnoldo · 01-26-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Hyppolytus ( 170-236 AD) directly stated the iron legs were the present Roman Empire, the feet (10) toes is the empire to be He gave the following interpretation of Daniel:

But I asked for where Josephus stated that the iron legs represented Rome.

Bear with me. . . Josephus writes that the book of daniel was accepted as canon.

Quote:

‘Josephus, writing in c. 95 A.D., includes Daniel as one of the Prophets in his accounting of the composition of the Hebrew canon.
This is in his Contra Apion (Against the Jews) I, 38-39 [8] and Antiquities, X, 11, 17. [Archer (1985): 7-8; Audet, 145; see also Barnes, 38-9] BTW, Josephus (Antiquities, b. xi. ch. viii. 3-8, 21, 22; xi. 3, 4) also describes an incident during the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great (332 B.C.; i.e., about 175 years before the commonly accepted date of 164 B.C. for the composition of Daniel) in which priests from Jerusalem met him and showed him the prophecies of Daniel concerning a Greek conquering the Persian empire. [Barnes, 54-5; Metzger, 219] “In all the sources of the first century A.D.–Matthew, Josephus, [and the] Qumran–Daniel is reckoned among the prophets.” [Koch, 123]’
David Conklin, ‘Evidences Relating to the Date of the Book of Daniel’, 2000

In any event the authenticity of Josephus in relation to Alexander the Great reading about himself in the book of daniel has been discredited.

arnoldo · 01-26-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

What neither Josephus nor Hippolytus were aware of was the interrelationship between the various visions and the statue dream. Both of them were separated from the period the visions all refer to and could not see the applicability.
spin

Since parts of the books are "sealed" I won't argue with that.

spin · 01-26-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

What neither Josephus nor Hippolytus were aware of was the interrelationship between the various visions and the statue dream. Both of them were separated from the period the visions all refer to and could not see the applicability.
spin

Since parts of the books are "sealed" I won't argue with that.

If parts of the book were sealed, you wouldn't have access to them. You wouldn't know about their content.

The statement about the book being sealed was for the benefit of those people to whom the text was aimed and explained why they had not had access earlier.

spin

arnoldo · 01-26-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Since parts of the books are "sealed" I won't argue with that.

If parts of the book were sealed, you wouldn't have access to them. You wouldn't know about their content.

The statement about the book being sealed was for the benefit of those people to whom the text was aimed and explained why they had not had access earlier.
spin

Yeah, the book of revelation is also "sealed." Anyway Daniel experiences a vision of four kingdoms.

Quote:

According to Bernard Muller, ("The Prophesies of Daniel"), the beasts can be defined as:
7:4 "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings." - Belshazzar (Neo Babylonian empire). Daniel's vision supposedly occurred during Belshazzar's reign.
7:5 "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth" - Cyrus the Great (Persian empire). The three ribs are Media, Lydia and Babylon.
7:6"After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it." - Alexander the Great (Greek/Macedonian empire). The four heads are the Hellenist kingdoms which resulted from the division of Alexander's empire.
7.7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong" with "huge iron teeth" and " ten horns"

After the Greek Empire the Roman Empire came next, right? This fourth beast is the Roman Empire.

Quote:

"The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever."
Daniel 7:17-18

makerowner · 01-26-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

If parts of the book were sealed, you wouldn't have access to them. You wouldn't know about their content.

The statement about the book being sealed was for the benefit of those people to whom the text was aimed and explained why they had not had access earlier.
spin

Yeah, the book of revelation is also "sealed." Anyway Daniel experiences a vision of four kingdoms.

No it's not: "And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10 RSV)

Quote:

After the Greek Empire the Roman Empire came next, right? This fourth beast is the Roman Empire.

No. Read the OP! There many reasons that the fourth kingdom is considered to be Greece. Can you explain how any of those reasons apply better to Rome, and/or how the third kingdom describes Greece?

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01-26-2008, 01:37 PM	#165
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	What neither Josephus nor Hippolytus were aware of was the interrelationship between the various visions and the statue dream. Both of them were separated from the period the visions all refer to and could not see the applicability. This is one reason I've challenged arnoldo to deal with the material I posted relating to Daniel 11. spin

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