braces_for_impact

I think it speaks volumes of the bankruptcy of the Christian moral system when liberals will not excercise their abilities to fight other Christians.

Perhaps the real issue here is that liberals still have more in common with fundamentalists than they do with secular people.

If the fundamentalists do win, it's not that far of a stretch for a liberal Christian, they might even think the laws that fundamentalists enact and so on would be good for the nation (i.e. theocracy).

Perhaps I should rethink my views on the differences between liberals and fundamentalists. Perhaps they aren't all that different.

RBAC, it doesn't seem to me that we have liberal Christians to thank for religious freedoms. It seems if anything, the courts following our constitution are what we have to thank, thus far.

Rational BAC

I disagree totally--

Numbers will always win out. And the numbers will always favor mainstream and very tolerant and somewhat skeptical and somewhat "of what importance is it really?---as long as I have the latest material goodies"--------- Christianity.

We will never let you down in any major way. Never have. Never will.

We will let a few things go as far as being not really that important. "In God We Trust?" Who gives a shit what they put on the money? "Under God" in the Pledge? Who gives a flying futch?

(Actually I have never said "under God" when reciting the Pledge, because I didn't learn it that way. And nobody has ever has noticed that I leave it out)

These are all dipshit "problems" only important to atheists. Nobody else really gives a crap. Nor should they. I say let the atheists fight their own picayune battles. Not my dog in that fight.

My dog in the fight is basic separation of Church and State ---not picayune stuff but big stuff. My dog in the fight is not letting this nation become a theocracy.

Does anyone on this forum actually believe that mainstream Christianity will allow a theocracy in this nation? Does anyone here actually believe that any BIG issue negating the separation of Church and State will be tolerated by mainstream Christianity?

Hell ---------that is why so many of us left Europe and came to this country. Have you forgotten that? We haven't.



We will never let you down. Never have. Never will.

Lanakila

Liberal Christians need to move to the south then maybe Rational? Because in certain parts of the country its the fundie's that rule. (for example Virginia is a fundie stronghold) For those of us atheists living in fundie strongholds, it does seem the liberals aren't doing enough, but in those fundie strongholds the temptation to remain silent and passive is stronger, and therefore, the fundies are winning. Well, they are by shear numbers most likely. Like you said its a numbers thing, and the south is certainly fundiefied.

Rhea

Chopped liver, here, still waiting for discussion of why liberal christians don't take a stand against fundies as commanded by their savior.

Rational BAC

Lana----

I agree with that one.----

I have always lived in somewhat cosmopolitan areas and have learned through this forum---from Goliath and from Starboy and others how awful it can be in some areas--------as far as being overwhelmed by the fundy mentality and thinking that that must be the way the whole nation is.

It is not. It really isn't.

I do have empathy for that type of situation. Really I do.

But the national numbers cannot lie. This nation is quite incapable of becoming a theocracy. This nation is quite incapable of integrating Church and State in any kind of serious way.

Rational BAC

Lost me there Rhea---

A little more in detail please.

Biff the unclean

As far as I can see from this thread and those like it, it's because they don't have to. Liking liberal ideals is all you have to do to take credit for them. Supporting them or defending them is a bother. Opposing those who attack them is really too much of a strain. If you sit back and ignore them, everything will turn out just fine.

The important thing is not what they do or don't do. The important thing is that liberal Christians take the credit. That's what the Bible REALLY means where you think Christians are commanded by their savior. You Atheists are just like Fundies and read the Bible literally when it is all metaphor and innuendo. Their savior really wants them to sit on their butts and relax and tell themselves how wonderful they are�wonderful for people who are totally depraved that is.

braces_for_impact

Speaking of numbers is exactly why I said what I said about the courts. The numbers can and will let you down. The courts exist because the founders realized that sometimes, the numbers will agree, but what they agree on may not be right, and might just trample the rights of the minority.

I have met too many liberal Christians that don't understand this, both in person and on the web. (Although I realize the web is at best, not a good sampling of Christianity.) They want judges to be elected on the national level. They want congress to have the authority to throw the courts' decision out if necessary. They simply do not realize that today's majority is tomorrow's minority. Nor do I think that they realize what a nightmare it would be if one particular brand of Christianity was to assume control, even for other types of Christians.

Thus far, it is the constitution that has protected us, not Christians. Recently, as it was during McCarthyism, the wall is straining. Although it's not as bad as the 50's yet, it could be, it has happened before. Where were all those liberal Christians then?

As far as "under god" or "In god we trust" I believe we have bigger fish to fry, and in those cases I expect no Christian help, of any particular stripe.

Rhea

Ignored from pages 2 and 3:


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Bear in mind I'm not a scholar and I cheerfully accept correction on scriptural interpretation.


======================

Paraphrasing here:


Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
- that is, do not enforce the Law unless you are sinless. So the preservation of marriage act can go.

Jesus said, "what you do to the least of my bothers, you do to me."
- that is when you insult a sinner (Christian homosexual) you insult Christ, so stop it. The "abomination" thing can be put to rest

Jesus said, "Nothing matters more than this: Love your neighbor as yourself and Love your God with All your heart"
- that is _all_neighbors_ even the abortion providers, even the liberals, even the gays. And think highly enough of God to care about whether his message is being accurately published.

Paul said, "Don't try to fix the heathens. Fix the other Christians. Fix each other. Make yourselves better Christians before you turn your gaze to non-believers.
- So don't be telling non-Christian whom they can and cannot marry.

Paul said, "if someone is not a Christian, don't make them violate their religion by your actions. Respect their resctrictions and don't taunt them. Just be sure to follow your own."
- So don't keep me from buying beer on Sunday, don't make me carry God on my money and don't make my kid pledge to God. And don't prevent me from gettin an abortion, either.

Jesus said, "be not as the pharisees praying on the street-corners, but pray privately to your god"
- So enough with the Football stadium thing and the steps of the capitol building.

Jesus said, "Just because they call me Lord and believe in me, doesn't mean they are doing my work"
- Those Pharisees aren't doing it right. You can save them by letting them know this!

Jesus saw people violating the temple and threw a fit.
- Don't let God get mixed up with Commerce

One of them said, "do not cast your pearls before swine" and "dust off your feet and leave when your message isb falling on deaf ears"
- meaning don't force it = Separation of Church and State. No ten commandments, no Presidential prayer, none of it. Dust your feet and don't let the swine tear apart the message.

================

A liberal Christian very often clings to the scriptures above. (edited to add: And NOT things like abhor the homosexual, remember the non-believer is wicked, etc) Fundamentalists violate them repeatedly.

A liberal Christain wants Christ to be seen as love. Fundies spoil this message.


A liberal Christian wants everyone to see the Love. Fundies prevent this.


Jesus commanded the liberal Christians (Contrast to the Pharisees) to spread his word. Paul added that they should make sure to correct the corrupted word. Spreading Jesus' word should include making sure the RIGHT WORD is what's heard. How is it spreading his word to allow a corrupt version to be believed? Paul was right in this. Nothing can damage Christianity faster than Pharisees.


My 2�
Last edited by Rhea on January 7, 2004 at 04:12 PM


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quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
And


What would you like liberal Christians to do to oppose those things? Why should they due to their liberal Christian theology?



So am I chopped liver?

My citations aren't good enough? I wrote enough of each that a Christian ought to be able to see the chapter and verse I mean. How many citations did I write? half a baker's dozen? Ten?


Are you interested in addressing or acknowledging any of them?


You keep asking the question. I answered. Please have the courtesy to discuss the reply that is within the guidelines you requested. Or even acknowledge it.


Here's a full citation on one of them. I've bolded the relevant summary:
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end repost of previous messages

Yahzi

I can't imagine how you can have faith in a claim like this. But then, I can't imagine how you have faith in God, either.

Societies go through trends. It is entirely concievable that insular, sectarian nature of American society could overwhelm the secular element and plunge the society (and the world) into a dark age. It's not like it hasn't happend before, you know.

I can imagine RBAC in a toga, arguing that the Roman Empire has stood for four hundred years, longer than any other empire in history, and will never fall.