Steven Carr

Which Mary do you think I meant?

Paul, of course, simply mentions a Mary without any trace of knowing that Mary was a very important name in Christian history.

Similarly, the Gospels claim that Rufus and Alexander had a famous father called Simon of Cyrene.

SO Paul naturally talks about the mother of Rufus, not the father.

It is as though Paul just doesn't have any knowledge of which names are famous in Christian history.

Romans 16
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. 3Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia. 6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. 7Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8Greet Ampliatus, whom I love in the Lord. 9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. 10Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus. 11Greet Herodion, my relative. Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord. 12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord. 13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. 14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. 15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas...


All those people Paul mentions and yet you can trace the Epistles high and low for Gospel characters.

Paul mentions a lot of people, so when he mentions so many people, historicists are forced to say that he is 'silent'.

The argument seems to go.

Here is Paul talking.

Paul is talking about a lot of people.

Paul is talking about a lot of people, but never mentions Gospel characters.

Paul is actually not talking at all. He is silent. So all arguments based on what Paul talks about are 'arguments from silence'

Chili

Exactly . . . because Paul also knows Mary first hand as the dowry received when he was born in Christ (the Damascus event that knocked him of his high horse).

In Christendom Mary is the most engmatic of all and that is just because she is and contains our very own heritage as the 'woman' that we left behind when we became rational beings with a mind of our own.

Paul speaks from silence to give testamony to that which he preaches (commonly known as the stigamta from John 20:20-20 "As the father has send me, so I send you" while showing his hands to mean what he said. cf "great commission in Matthew).

Mary is the queen of angels and therefore the third person of the trinity to identify the son of man when the dove returned to the 'gate of purgatory' (Galilee they called it) or (narrows of Kiang in "A River Merchant's wife: a letter)."

We have a whole litany on her for good reason and the above is just one of them . . . but it is the beginning of heaven on earth.

Toto

Mary was a common name - I have seen estimates that 25% of the women in first century Israel were named Mary, based on ossuary inscriptions. This sounds a little improbable, but still it was a common name.

It seems to be the opinion of scholars (perhaps not approaching a consensus) that at least one version of the letter to the Romans was not originally directed at a church in Rome; in particular that the cast of characters in Romans 16 was more likely to be in Ephesus. (See, e.g., An Introduction to the New Testament and the Origins of Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Delbert Royce Burkett, p. 31, who notes that Prisca and Aquila, and also Epaenetus were more likely to be in Ephesus. The scholarly opinions are summarized in The Early Christians in Ephesus from Paul to Ignatius (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Paul Trebilco at page 88, including the possibility that the list was tacked on to the letter by someone other than Paul.)

So this Mary was some local, along with the rest.

I don't know of anyone who has analyzed that list of names. There are a suspicious number of Greek Gods included.

Clivedurdle

I don't see what is suspicious about using a god as a name if the personal name is an indication of family values.

http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/A...-and-Rome.html

Chili

Could easy be, and I can't say without looking at it closer.

Chili

I find this very interesting Clive thank you. Also confirming for me in a special way.

Loomis

I’ve noticed that GJohn never links the name ‘Mary’ to the mother of Jesus.

Sure – he talks about the mother of Jesus …

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=50&spanend=50

And sure – he talks about some women named Mary …

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=50&spanend=50

But he never links the name ‘Mary’ with Jesus’ mother.



And get a load of John 19:25. As I understand it this can be rendered with four women like this …
Or with three women like this …
But no matter how you read it – it doesn’t say that Jesus’ mother was named Mary. Note that the second reading says that ‘Mary’ was Jesus’ aunt. :constern02:

Chili

Good catch, John refers to the woman who was left behind when 'Joseph' (here) left Eden. It will always be 'the woman' but we call her Mary. In Coriolanus she is called Virgilia, in The Spire she is called Goody I think, in WE it was O-90.

Every mythology has one and they have her counterpart as well . . . because she is the gate to heaven and contains our dorwry in bethrotal = she is what we are once we know who we are.

spamandham

Paul also doesn't know Jesus' other family members....unless the 'brother of the lord' title bestowed on James is really a reference to a blood relationship.

neilgodfrey

Which, of course, makes it all the less likely that the name of Mary would not be more narrowly identified in a "real life" situation.