Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayjay · 03-24-2004, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sensei Meela
Anyways, it still seems a bit like - 3:8 is a counterpoint to - 3:7 in the KJV; IOW, like he has written: 'Hey, I'm not saying (as is reported of me) we should do evil to bring God's good; I'm saying that lying to make converts is not evil!'

I don't really see how 3:8 could be construed as even implying that "lying to make converts is not evil". KJV may be a bit obscure on the subject, but in the end I think the most feasible interpretation is the NIV one.

Furyus George · 03-24-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sharon45
I was just pointing these out, if you can't understand why it applies from really reading it through, I guess you will have to remain stumped.

I will give one hint to get you started though if you want: paul is most of the time trying to connect the OT god and law on through to his 'newly' created god and law for the NT.

It wasn't the verses that had me stumped, Sharon. It is your unsubstantiated accusation that Paul lied in those verses.

I challenge you to show me where Paul is lying.

Furyus George, really read

Sensei Meela · 03-24-2004, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jayjay
I don't really see how 3:8 could be construed as even implying that "lying to make converts is not evil". KJV may be a bit obscure on the subject, but in the end I think the most feasible interpretation is the NIV one.

Uh, you mean 3:7, right? For reference:

Quote:

Romans 3 (NIV)
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

Romans 3 (KJV)
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

So, no; I don't think the NIV is too unlcear. But it is less clear in the KJV. [Edited to add -- my opponent has tried to argue that Paul was not saying that our unrighteousness makes God more righteous...but that's not true, is it? Have I completely misread Paul -- who elsewhere said that God's grace increases with an increase in sin -- ??]

Even granting that Paul has condemned 'the Noble Lie' here, what to make of Phil 1:18 and 1 Cor 9:20-22?

For reference:

Quote:

Philippians 1
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. ... 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

1 Corinthians 9
20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

It sure seems like Paul has no qualms about deceit and false motives when it brings people to God [deceit being a form of unrighteousness, and converts being a thing which brings God glory] and thus he doesn't follow his own advice (from Romans 3)...or am I totally wrong?

Krosis · 03-24-2004, 07:48 PM

I think this thread would go better in Biblical Criticism & History..

off we go..

-Krosis GRD moderator

Sensei Meela · 03-24-2004, 08:14 PM

Thanks for the recommendation, Krosis. I had originally intended it for BC&H but felt it wasn't necessarily a criticism or historical enough to merit putting it there.

[edited to add:]

Just to reiterate the main point I'm looking to discuss -- even granting that Paul has condemned 'the Noble Lie' in Rom 3, what to make of Phil 1:18 and 1 Cor 9:20-22?

Sensei Meela · 03-25-2004, 11:20 AM

Please, I must know!!

Jayjay · 03-25-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sensei Meela
Uh, you mean 3:7, right? For reference:

[snip]

No, I meant 3:8 as a counterpoint to 3:7, which sounds only plausible if 3:8 is what Paul really was saying, and 3:7 is the hypothetical where he is "speaking as a man". The contrary just doesn't make any sense; why would Paul first say that it's okay to lie, and immediately condemn it, if he really does want to say that it's okay after all? He may have been illogical at times, but not that illogical.

Quote:

Even granting that Paul has condemned 'the Noble Lie' here, what to make of Phil 1:18 and 1 Cor 9:20-22?

False motives is not the same as "noble lie", and adopting the habits of the ones you're trying to convert is not exactly deception, after all Paul doesn't really care about the laws either way and he was technically a Jew too, wasn't he?

I think you're chasing shadows... if Paul was a "noble liar", that would have been the first thing he'd lie about in his letters!

sharon45 · 03-25-2004, 12:17 PM

In Phil. 1:18, I do not see this as a lie but it is somewhat a deception and it is very much like 1Cor 9. Paul feels as long as people even hear about a person name jesus, no matter that person's motives, that enough is to start 'the ball rolling' for them in time to really understand and be blessed by him(jesus).

With 1 Cor. 9:20-22, that is a deception also again, but more in the form as jesus was, jesus didn't bother much with those besides that were like how he passed himself as in his preaching, a poor simple man to talk with poor simple people. Since he knew he was neither, he knew he could 'rule' over them with his words of hope of a better life afterward. With statements like, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first", jesus was telling those poor people about exactly what they wanted to hear, there was in time, justice for the downtrodden. This process is used extensively in modern ways of converting people to christianity, with different forms being added all the time. That would be like those in the christian rock scene to 'kids' into extreme sports, christians try to reach as many as they can in the many different forms of people, by first being much like those they wish to convert for a more subtle approach to gain a person's trust. There are many christians that pose as Jews, learn Hebrew, follow the diet laws and such, but slowly hint to others among them about jesus. J4J was started by a christian, not a Jew.

Sensei Meela · 03-25-2004, 01:36 PM

Thank you for replying!

Quote:

Originally posted by Jayjay
No, I meant 3:8 as a counterpoint to 3:7, which sounds only plausible if 3:8 is what Paul really was saying, and 3:7 is the hypothetical where he is "speaking as a man". The contrary just doesn't make any sense; why would Paul first say that it's okay to lie, and immediately condemn it, if he really does want to say that it's okay after all? He may have been illogical at times, but not that illogical.

The "And not rather..." part is the tricky part; it could be interpreted as an extension of the previous line. Like, he could be saying (in 3:7-8) 'we can lie to increase Gods glory, but we shouldn't go around doing evil'. I don't think this is very teneble, and it is indeed rather illogical, so I move one.

Quote:

adopting the habits of the ones you're trying to convert is not exactly deception, after all Paul doesn't really care about the laws either way and he was technically a Jew too, wasn't he?

But was he "all things to all people" (foremost, was he a Gentile)? I'll agree that Paul may not have cared too much about such distinctions, and maybe 'deceptive' (while accurate) is too strong a word: 'beguiling' might be a better fit.

Quote:

False motives is not the same as "noble lie"

Perhaps...but if I may play Dictionary for a moment:

Pretense = false show; professed rather than real intention or purpose.
...compare to...
Beguile = to lead by deception; to engage the interest of by guile
...and...
Deceive = to be false, ensare
...and...
Lie = to create a false or misleading impression

In Phil., the preachers Paul refers to are certainly guilty of 'creating a false impression' of being men of God, in order that they may 'engage the interests' of the people, with 'professed rather than real intentions and purposes.'

Quote:

I think you're chasing shadows...

You're probably right.

Quote:

... if Paul was a "noble liar", that would have been the first thing he'd lie about in his letters!

For some reason, this is funny to me, but I don't quite get it. Could you explain?

sharon45:
That's pretty much how I see those verses.

Thanks again for the responses!

[edit: Hello James, are you there?]

Furyus George · 03-25-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sharon45
In Phil. 1:18, I do not see this as a lie but it is somewhat a deception and it is very much like 1Cor 9. Paul feels as long as people even hear about a person name jesus, no matter that person's motives, that enough is to start 'the ball rolling' for them in time to really understand and be blessed by him(jesus).

How is this {Phil 1:9} deception? Paul is just glad Christ is being preached. Some were preaching out of "envy or rivalry" so their personal motives were not pure. Paul is saying that, hey, the word is getting out despite that the messengers may not have Christ's best interest at heart. Again, how is this deception?

Quote:

With 1 Cor. 9:20-22, that is a deception also again...{snipped}

You are misinterpreting again, Sharon45. How is trying to fit in with a crowd deception? If you want to get a message to a bunch of bikers, ride a motorcycle. If you want to reach music fans, form a band. If you want to evangalize bowlers, set up a bowling team. How is this deception?

Quote:

That would be like those in the christian rock scene to 'kids' into extreme sports, christians try to reach as many as they can in the many different forms of people, by first being much like those they wish to convert for a more subtle approach to gain a person's trust.

Trying to apeal to different groups is deception? I don't know you personally, but I can imagine you should stay away from marketing as a career choice.

Quote:

There are many christians that pose as Jews, learn Hebrew, follow the diet laws and such, but slowly hint to others among them about jesus. J4J was started by a christian, not a Jew.

This is hilarious! As in previous posts, I ask that you back this up. By the way, logically, Jews for Jesus would be founded by a Christian! The group was founded by Moishe Rosen in 1970.

Furyus George, starting to recognize

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03-24-2004, 07:48 PM	#14
Krosis Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: WWLLD? Posts: 2,237	I think this thread would go better in Biblical Criticism & History.. off we go.. -Krosis GRD moderator

03-24-2004, 08:14 PM	#15
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	Thanks for the recommendation, Krosis. I had originally intended it for BC&H but felt it wasn't necessarily a criticism or historical enough to merit putting it there. [edited to add:] Just to reiterate the main point I'm looking to discuss -- even granting that Paul has condemned 'the Noble Lie' in Rom 3, what to make of Phil 1:18 and 1 Cor 9:20-22?

03-25-2004, 11:20 AM	#16
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	Please, I must know!!

03-25-2004, 12:17 PM	#18
sharon45 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southwest, US Posts: 8,759	In Phil. 1:18, I do not see this as a lie but it is somewhat a deception and it is very much like 1Cor 9. Paul feels as long as people even hear about a person name jesus, no matter that person's motives, that enough is to start 'the ball rolling' for them in time to really understand and be blessed by him(jesus). With 1 Cor. 9:20-22, that is a deception also again, but more in the form as jesus was, jesus didn't bother much with those besides that were like how he passed himself as in his preaching, a poor simple man to talk with poor simple people. Since he knew he was neither, he knew he could 'rule' over them with his words of hope of a better life afterward. With statements like, "The first shall be last and the last shall be first", jesus was telling those poor people about exactly what they wanted to hear, there was in time, justice for the downtrodden. This process is used extensively in modern ways of converting people to christianity, with different forms being added all the time. That would be like those in the christian rock scene to 'kids' into extreme sports, christians try to reach as many as they can in the many different forms of people, by first being much like those they wish to convert for a more subtle approach to gain a person's trust. There are many christians that pose as Jews, learn Hebrew, follow the diet laws and such, but slowly hint to others among them about jesus. J4J was started by a christian, not a Jew.

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