Duvduv

You mean the rabbinic texts weren't in the hands of Jewish communities and rabbis? We know that Philo and Josephus WERE n the hands of the Church and not Jewish communities and rabbis.
So where was the Talmud? In Tibetan monasteries?!

jdboy

Here you say Jesus would be essene if he existed.

The Essenes were a sect of the Pharisees. So in effect Jesus was arguing with the Essenes.

"Thus the more than six thousand Pharisees who claimed to be "highly favored by God" and to possess by "divine inspiration foreknowledge of things to come," and who refused to take an oath of fealty to Herod, predicting his downfall while promising children to Bagoas, the eunuch (Josephus, "Ant." xvii. 2, § 4), were scarcely different from those elsewhere called "Essenes" ("Ant." xv. 10, § 4)."

aa5874

I said no such thing. You are not credible. You are blatantly mis-representing my statements. I am not amused.

I asked an hypothetical question.

Why are you doing this?? The Markan Jesus story did not claim there were arguments with Essens.

Now, Is it not written in Wars of the Jews 2 that there were THREE philosophical Sects??

Wars of the Jews 2 There is no claim by Josephus that Pharisees and Essenes were of the same Sect.

aa5874

Keep guessing.

jdboy

I realize you are asking the question. And you are presenting examples that support a yes answer.
Im arguing for the negative answer.

Yes, and Josephus goes on to say that the 6,000 of those Pharisees could be considered Essene He also claims that all three made up the 4th philosophy out of which came the zealots. Hippoolytus claims the zealots came from the Essenes.
HAP. XXI.--DIFFERENT SECTS OF THE ESSENI.

The Essenes have, however, in the lapse of time, undergone divisions, and they do not preserve their system of training after a similar manner, inasmuch as they have been split up into four parties. For some of them discipline themselves above the requisite rules of the order, so that even they would not handle a current coin of the country, saying that they ought not either to carry, or behold, or fashion an image: wherefore no one of those goes into a city, lest (by so doing) he should enter through a gate at which statues are erected, regarding it a violation of law to pass beneath images. But the adherents of another party, if they happen to hear any one maintaining a discussion concerning God and His laws--supposing such to be an uncircumcised person, they will closely watch him and when they meet a person of this description in any place alone, they will threaten to slay him if he refuses to undergo the rite of circumcision. Now, if the latter does not wish to comply with this request, an Essene spares not, but even slaughters. And it is from this occurrence that they have received their appellation, being denominated (by some) Zelotae, but by others Sicarii. And the adherents of another party call no one Lord except the Deity, even though one should put them to the torture, or even kill them. But there are others of a later period, who have to such an extent declined from the discipline (of the order), that, as far as those are concerned who continue in the primitive customs, they would not even touch these. And if they happen to come in contact with them, they immediately resort to ablution, as if they had touched one belonging to an alien tribe. But here also there are very many of them of so great longevity, as even to live longer than a hundred years. They assert, therefore, that a cause of this arises from their extreme devotion to religion, and their condemnation of all excess in regard of what is served up (as food), and from their being temperate and incapable of anger. And so it is that they despise death, rejoicing when they can finish their course with a good conscience. If, however, any one would even put to the torture persons of this description, in order to induce any amongst them either to speak evil of the law, or eat what is offered in sacrifice to an idol, he will not effect his purpose; for one of this party submits to death and endures torment rather than violate his conscience.

Why are speculating on if Jesus existed he was Essene in your Jesus Myth thread?

aa5874

Your story keeps changing. If you knew in advance that I asked a question then you very well knew that you mis-represented what I wrote.

I find that extremely disturbing.

My argument is clear that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century based on the Preponderance of evidence from antiquity.

The author of the short gMark appears to have used the writings of Josephus about the Essenes to fabricate the teachings of the INVENTED Jesus cult in the 1st century during the time of Pilate and the reign of Tiberius.

In effect, the Jesus story in the short gMark is NOT an historical account but an invention derived from the teachings and rituals of the Essenes.

jdboy

You can feel disturbed you can claim i mis reped you But i'm not here to amuse you. You can count on that. You presented your argument for the yes jesus was likely Essene I argued against it.

aa5874

Your story has changed again.

You just claimed that you realise I asked a question now you are reversing yourself.

My argument is that the Jesus story in gMark is a Fable, that the Jesus cult originated in the 2nd century and the short gMark Jesus story has nothing whatsoever to do with Remission of Sins by Sacrifice and Resurrection but was based on the accounts of the Essenes found in the writings of Philo and Josephus.

Being Rich deprived people of obtaining Eternal Life in the short gMark 10.

1. In the short gMark 10, one obtains Eternal Life by obeying the commandments and giving to the Poor.

2. In the short gMark 9, one does not have to be a follower of the Markan Jesus.

The Rich man in gMark did NOT qualify for Eternal Life because he refused to sell his possessions and give to the poor even though he followed the commandments from youth.

[Mark 10 The Rich man failed to qualify for Eternal Life.

In the short gMark the Essenes would qualify for Eternal Life.

1. They followed the Commandments and gave to the poor.

2. They Despised Riches.

Wars of the Jews 2

jdboy

I argued that jesus said it would not be easy but nothing was impossible with God. The rich man did not have to qualify.

aa5874

Your argument is irrelevant to this thread.

After an examination of the short gMark it is found that it has Nothing whatsoever about Remission of Sins by the Sacrifice and the Resurrection of Jesus as found in the Later gJohn and Pauline writings.

In effect, the Jesus character is not needed at all.

There is NO need for an Historical Crucified and Resurrected Jesus to obtain Eternal Life in the short Mark.

People just needed to be Baptized, Follow the Commandments and if they were Rich--Sell their possessions and give to the Poor.

In gMark 1, John the Baptist, Baptized for Remission of Sins and the Rich man just had to follow the commandments and sell his possessions and give to the poor.