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09-11-2006, 02:02 AM | #101 |
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Excellent review Solo. Very well written, clear and to the point. Beautiful to read. In fact, it has increased my interest in this secret mark business. You write well.
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09-11-2006, 12:13 PM | #102 | |
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It is much less clear to me that in the ancient world people would have understood it in that way. It seems to require modern ideas about chemical purity and lack thereof. In the absence of analytical techniques to show for example the presence of magnesium as well as sodium, the stuff that looks like salt but doesn't taste very nice would not I think be seen as contaminated by foreign substances. I'm not disputing that this is what has happened only whether a person in the ancient world would have seen it that way. (This may be a valid argument against the claim that the salt metaphor requires a 20th century date. I would not be surprised if 19th century or even slightly earlier parallels to the metaphor in the Mar Saba letter could be found. Once there is a clear concept of chemical elements, compounds and mixtures that might be all that is necessary but the idea still appears anachronistic in the ancient world.) Andrew Criddle |
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09-11-2006, 02:00 PM | #103 | |
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I regard the Mar Saba letter as hyper-Clementine in style and vocabulary while at the semantic level saying rather non-Clementine things. Stephen's argument that what the letter says about salt is non-Clementine (in fact non Late Antique) in semantic content fits perfectly well with that (there is no dispute that the metaphor uses Clementine vocabulary) Andrew Criddle |
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09-11-2006, 03:25 PM | #104 | |
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Regards, Jiri |
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09-11-2006, 04:31 PM | #105 | |
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But, what in the 'semantic content' do you see as non-Clementine ? Is it the Theodore's idea of mixing truth and lies in the gospel , with the result of 'salt (fidelity) losing its savor (purpose), which supposedly contradicts Clement's lament elsewhere that some in the flock, supposedly being 'salt of the earth', are like fish that are not salty (faithful) and need salting from such as himself ? But you can see the difference in the two contexts, can you not ? In the case of Carpocratians, they have split from the Church, abuse its teachings to justify doing unspeakably horrible things for which they'll get hell (if that is Clementine). In the case of the bad actors among Clement's charges, they are disobedient, talk nonsense, and spread it, but they are still salvageable. And my wild guess is - let me make a fool of myself here - they are still in Clement's church or near it. Jiri |
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09-11-2006, 07:55 PM | #106 | ||||
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That's a funny anecdote, Jiri. Quote:
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And you did a fine job with the other points you've made. All the best, Yuri. |
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09-11-2006, 09:58 PM | #107 | |
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I also have to question your sense of history if you really believe that the 1950s were not an especially oppressive period for gay men in America. Joe McCarthy as proof that the 1950s were not repressive? What planet do you live on? Finally, your insinuations of libel are beyond the pale of civilized discourse. You're going on my "ignore" list. ** Plonk ** Stephen Carlson |
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09-11-2006, 10:39 PM | #108 |
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Carlson,
I think that is a response that is, IMHO, hasty and out of character. I have always found you (and Anddrew C.) patient and focused even in the face of flapdoodle and your unqualified forbearance has won my respect for you. I think Jiri raised several important points that should not be ignored simply because his perspective departs from that of your publisher and the parties that were consulted, or because of some sympathetic anecdotal evidence. It is also unclear to me how an accusation of libel turns this into an uncivilized discourse. Of course, how you respond to your reviewers is your prerogative. But in my view, this specific response, to this specific review, is ineffective and squanders an opportunity for a debate that can help clarify matters and make the subject of this secret "gospel" more interesting and vibrant. This in my view is counterproductive because this is a debate that could potentially attract more readers and widen the debate. I expected that you would tackle the challenges Jiri raised, directly and comprehensively, not dismissively. But clearly, my expectations were misplaced. My bad. |
09-11-2006, 11:11 PM | #109 | |
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Stephen |
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09-12-2006, 12:15 AM | #110 | |
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I'm not sure that the Japanese making nigari saw themselves as removing contaminants from salt and in any case I doubt if it is relevant to Western perceptions. Andrew Criddle |
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