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Old 05-11-2007, 03:59 PM   #31
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Carrier wrote this before Salm's book was published. I don't know if he has looked at that book.
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Old 05-11-2007, 04:49 PM   #32
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What do you expect - a signpost? Get real.
According to a lives of the saints I read some years back, Helena (seventy something year old Augusta of Rome) on a tour of the Holy Land found Nazareth by following the directions of an angel of the lord. Said angel also showed her the one true cross, the spear that pierced Jesus and all manner of sites of interest.
What luck for the local politicians that when the Emperor’s mom shows up demanding to take the Jesus tour of things and places that they knew nothing about– that in the nick-o-time an angel appeared to point them out to her.
“Get real” indeed. Nazareth is as much Jesus’ Nazareth as those big chunks of wood they dug up were Jesus’ cross… an angel wouldn’t lie. Would he?:angel:
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Old 05-11-2007, 04:58 PM   #33
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Rene Salm claims to have examined the evidence, and decided that Nazareth did not exist.
I failed his online quiz at questions 5 ("despite the claims in the scholarly literature," my answer was wrong) and 8 ("yup! Nazareth was first settled in the period between the First and Second Jewish Revolt! It's proven!"). Disturbingly, you can't move on unless you agree with his answers to the quiz.
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:36 PM   #34
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Carrier wrote this before Salm's book was published. I don't know if he has looked at that book.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought he mentioned on Point of Inquiry that he has changed his position regarding a historical Jesus altogether.

Nevertheless, there is little debate, as far as I know, that the city we now call 'Nazareth', was built on an older settlement. The debate centers on two points:

- was that earlier settlement inhabited in the first century
- was it Nazareth

I am not aware of any archaeologist who denies that the only reason we call it 'nazareth' today, is because the church discovered a well, declared it to be Mary's well, and declared the site to be Nazareth.

Is this history denied?
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Old 05-12-2007, 04:40 AM   #35
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I failed his online quiz at questions 5 ("despite the claims in the scholarly literature," my answer was wrong) and 8 ("yup! Nazareth was first settled in the period between the First and Second Jewish Revolt! It's proven!"). Disturbingly, you can't move on unless you agree with his answers to the quiz.
Providing what he wants doesn't mean that you agree with him. One tends to humor people for various reasons.


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Old 05-12-2007, 06:52 AM   #36
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What isn't so clear is whether the Peter, James, and John of Paul are the same Gospel Peter, James, and John. They might be, or it might just be that these names were very popular.
I do consider the gospels to be works of fiction, not history, but I think it's stretching coincidence a bit to suppose that when the stories were invented, the names chosen for Jesus' three most prominent disciples happened to be the same as those of three of the Jerusalem church's "pillars."

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It's possible that the Gospel versions folded in historical early church leaders, just as the Gospels fold in Herod and Pilate and others.
I suspect that that is exactly what the gospel authors did. Or rather, that Mark (or one of his sources) did. The others, of course, just followed his lead on that point.
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Old 05-12-2007, 09:47 AM   #37
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought he mentioned on Point of Inquiry that he has changed his position regarding a historical Jesus altogether.
Richard publicly declared his change in position here and, in that same post, wrote "...I must clarify my position vis-a-vis Nazareth, which remains substantially (though not entirely) the same, before getting to my major shift in position...".

If I understand him correctly, he continues to consider it likely that Nazareth existed in the 1st century but doesn't consider it likely that the author of Mark intended the connection with Jesus to represent history but symbolic:

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I am even more certain than ever before that Mark neither intended to make such a historical claim (that Jesus was really born at a real Nazareth) nor would any such claim have been historically true--i.e. I am now more convinced than I was before that a Nazareth attribution more probably than not served a symbolic purpose.
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:42 AM   #38
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According to Richard Carrier, there's no doubt that there was a Nazareth at the time Jesus was supposed to have lived:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...3&page=8&pp=25
[A]rchaeology has confirmed a stone building in Nazareth of the size and type to be a synagogue, and it dates from the time of Christ. See the entry in the Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land...

The evidence is insurmountable that there were numerous permanent structures--most of Nazareth's buildings even before the 1st century were partially carved from the rock of the hill, in a manner similar to Pella...

I was able to track down on my own the most extensive report, that of Bagatti (Excavations in Nazareth, vol. 1, 1969), and I looked through all the subsequent reports on Nazareth from Excavations and Surveys in Israel, and this is what I found:

(a) Very little of Nazareth has been excavated, and therefore no argument can be advanced regarding what "wasn't" there in the 1st century.

(b) Archaeological reports confirm that stones and bricks used in earlier buildings in Nazareth were reused in later structures, thus erasing a lot of the evidence. Therefore, it is faulty reasoning to argue that there were no brick or stone structures simply because we have not recovered them from the relevant strata (i.e. one of Hoffman's sources assumed that the absence of this evidence entailed mud-and-thatch housing, but that is fallacious reasoning--especially since no clear evidence of mud-and-thatch housing has been found, either).

(c) One example of the above includes four calcite column bases, which were reused in a later structure, but are themselves dated before the War by their stylistic similarity to synagogues and Roman structures throughout 1st century Judaea, and by the fact that they contain Nabataean lettering (which suggests construction before Jewish priests migrated to Nazareth after the war). This is not iron clad proof of a 1st century synagogue (since the pieces had been moved and thus could not be dated by strata), but it does demonstrate a very high probability--especially since calcite bases are cheap material compared to the more expensive marble of structures archaeologists confirmed started appearing there around a century later, i.e. by the end of the 1st century AD (or early 2nd century at the latest, since marble fragments have been found inscribed in Aramaic that is paleographically dated to this period), and more extensively again in the 3rd century (when a very impressive Jewish synagogue was built there, this time using marble, which was later converted to Christian use).

(d) I confirmed beyond any doubt that Nazareth was built on a hill--more specifically, down the slope of a hill, with a convenient "brow" roughly one city block away from the edge of the ancient town as so-far determined archaeologically. Because the town was built down the slope of a hill, we have found numerous examples of houses, tombs, and storage rooms half cut into the rock of the hill, leaving a diagonal slope for structures to be built up around them to complete the chambers (as I described above). Since these structural elements were so completely removed and apparently reused by later builders, no evidence remains of what they were composed of (whether mud, brick, or stone).

The bottom line: there is absolutely no doubt that Nazareth existed in the time of Jesus.
It turned out Carrier was wrong on a number of issues and was clearly out of his depth. See this post.
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Old 05-13-2007, 03:10 AM   #39
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It turned out Carrier was wrong on a number of issues and was clearly out of his depth.
So you agreed with the anonymous expert? Okay. It's a big "so what?" at that point. You, me, and the Don are left with conflicting expert testimonies (and on the one side I don't have primarily Carrier in mind, though he is an expert in ancient history). Do we play favorites among them? Quote one against the other?

I would suggest that we either content ourselves with our perplexion or seek to know as much as the experts know about a particular subdomain of their field, but please, not to cherry pick the results we like.

You would have done better to engage Carrier directly in that thread, if you indeed knew that he was wrong on a number of issues. He might have responded if it weren't a raving, insulting piece of work signed by noone.

The proof by link here is disappointing.
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:15 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Amaleq13 View Post
Richard publicly declared his change in position here and, in that same post, wrote "...I must clarify my position vis-a-vis Nazareth, which remains substantially (though not entirely) the same, before getting to my major shift in position...".
Thanks for digging that up! We can be friends again now.
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