Freethought & Rationalism Archive

S.C.Carlson · 02-05-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Tertullian (Against Marcion) and Epiphanius (Panarion, esp ch 42) often worked from memory even when they compared Marcion with Luke. Thus, they reproached Marcion for having removed certain passages of the Gospel of Luke which were actually contained in the Gospel of Matthew.

I haven't heard this before. Has someone published on this before? Did Tertullian or Epiphanius ever reproach Marcion for allegedly deleting Lukan Sondergut (material now found only in Luke)?

Stephen

Ben C Smith · 02-05-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I would be satisfied if you would agree that with Paul, the priority is with Marcion.

Wow, I missed this the first time through, for some reason.

I completely disagree that Marcion penned Paul from scratch. (I simultaneously admit that Marcion may preserve the original reading at times over and against our extant copies.) But that is not really the issue here right now; as I made clear before, even if I agreed with you that the Pauline epistles originated with Marcion, I would still have trouble with your statement on the embarrassing lack of historical detail in Paul.

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 02-05-2007, 02:07 PM

I don't think the Marcioites knew gospel details when the epistles were being developed. If they had, they would have included about 200+ references.

jakejonesiv · 02-05-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Quote:

Tertullian (Against Marcion) and Epiphanius (Panarion, esp ch 42) often worked from memory even when they compared Marcion with Luke. Thus, they reproached Marcion for having removed certain passages of the Gospel of Luke which were actually contained in the Gospel of Matthew.

I haven't heard this before. Has someone published on this before? ...
Stephen

MARCION par Georges Ory

Ben C Smith · 02-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I don't think the Marcioites knew gospel details when the epistles were being developed. If they had, they would have included about 200+ references.

Oh, I see. So you think that Marcion wrote the Pauline epistles from scratch, and only later stumbled upon the proto-gospel details.

Did he, in your judgment, know about the descent of Jesus to earth when he wrote the epistles? Or did that datum come only later too?

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 02-05-2007, 02:44 PM

I have demonstrated there are no necessary internal inconsistencies of logic.

We are into areas in which I have studies yet to perform.
I have posted as much as I am going to on a speculative basis, based on questions of "What do you think?" Since you have merely asked for opinions, I have not bothered to carefully check sources.

That is quite enough of my opinion, which of course is subject to change.

S.C.Carlson · 02-05-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

MARCION par Georges Ory

Reading French is no problem for me, but the site is huge. I couldn't easily find where Ory argues this or presents the evidence for it. (I don't know whether it is true or false, but it would be very interesting to me if it's true.)

At any rate, this observation by Ory seems to go against it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ory

Lue* 10/18 parle de Satan qui tombe du ciel; les autres synoptiques ainsi que Marcion ignorent ce passage.

Luke 10:18 speaks of Satan who falls from the sky; the other synoptics as well as Marcion do not know this passage.

* "Lue" appears to be an OCR error for "Luc".

Stephen

Ben C Smith · 02-05-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

We are into areas in which I have studies yet to perform.

Fair enough. Carry on. Ciao.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 02-05-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

At any rate, this observation by Ory seems to go against it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ory

Lue* 10/18 parle de Satan qui tombe du ciel; les autres synoptiques ainsi que Marcion ignorent ce passage.

Luke 10:18 speaks of Satan who falls from the sky; the other synoptics as well as Marcion do not know this passage.

* "Lue" appears to be an OCR error for "Luc".

Interestingly, Papias seems to have known it. (I am quite certain you already know this; I just think it is rather interesting what Papias appears to know, despite the paucity of his surviving fragments.)

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 02-06-2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Reading French is no problem for me, but the site is huge. I couldn't easily find where Ory argues this or presents the evidence for it. (I don't know whether it is true or false, but it would be very interesting to me if it's true.)

At any rate, this observation by Ory seems to go against it:

* "Lue" appears to be an OCR error for "Luc".

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I am not exactly sure what you are asking for, but here goes.

Ory’s assertion is as follows:

Quote:

Tertullien et Epiphane travaillaient souvent de mémoire même quand ils comparaient Marcion ê Luc; cette méthode était fort critiquable. Ainsi, ils reprochaient ê Marcion d'avoir supprimé certains passages de l'Evangile de Luc que celui-ci, en réalité ne contenait pas mais qui se trouvaient dans Matthieu; ce dernier paraît avoir été leur auteur préféré.
http://assoc.orange.fr/cercle.ernest...priorit%E9.htm

A more concise list of the passages where Marcion’s opponents apparently confused passages in Matthew with Luke is found on Roger Pearse’s site, where Dr. Holmes quotes from Dr. Lardner, The History of Heretics.
Here is an excerpt from note 4.

Quote:

Lardner refers two of these instances to passages in chap. vii. of this Book iv., where Tertullian mentions, as erasures from Luke, what really are found in Matthew v. 17 and xv. 24. The third instance referred to by Lardner probably occurs at the end of chap. ix. of this same Book iv., where Tertullian again mistakes Matt. v. 17 for a passage of Luke, and charges Marcion with expunging it; curiously enough, the mistake recurs in chap. xii of the same Book
http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-32.htm

I will note that additionally, concerning the title of teacher, Ory states

Quote:

LE TITRE DE MAITRE (Matthieu 23/8-10) Ces versets sont attribués ê l'Evangelion par Ephrem le Syrien; ils ne figurent ni dans Luc, ni dans Marc; seul, Matthieu les connaît.
http://assoc.orange.fr/cercle.ernest...ommentaire.htm

If, on the other hand, you are asking if Marcion's version does not include certain passages that are found only in canonical Luke, then the answer is yes, quite obviously; the birth and infancy narrative springs to mind.

Hope this is of some help.

Jake Jones IV

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02-05-2007, 02:07 PM	#133
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	I don't think the Marcioites knew gospel details when the epistles were being developed. If they had, they would have included about 200+ references.

02-05-2007, 02:44 PM	#136
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	I have demonstrated there are no necessary internal inconsistencies of logic. We are into areas in which I have studies yet to perform. I have posted as much as I am going to on a speculative basis, based on questions of "What do you think?" Since you have merely asked for opinions, I have not bothered to carefully check sources. That is quite enough of my opinion, which of course is subject to change.

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