Duvduv

Thanks. I haven't seen those yet. However, everything claimed about Marcion comes from church propagandists and there are many anomalies and contradictions in it. So how anyone could be confident of what Marcion or Marcionites believed is beyond me. I do know that C.P. Sense in his book, An Inquiry into the Third Gospel argues against the claims of the church propagandists. So who is to say what the influence was, if any??

Duvduv

Could be, but one has to wonder why the canonizers overlooked everything.
They overlooked all the contradictions between Acts and epistles and internal to each.
They overlooked the contradiction in the genealogies in Luke and Matthew, and the fact that the Lukian scribe couldn't get names straight that were known from the Tanakh.
They overlooked the theological differences between the Epistle to Hebrews and the other epistles, and the theological differences among the gospel.
They overlooked the contradictions in the writings of the heresiologists, such as Irenaeus, Justin and others.
This is all despite the reputation of Greeks and Romans for philosophy, logic and rationality.

Sheshbazzar

Sorry aa, but as I am very aware of the both The Tanaka's and LXX's prophetic usages of the יהושע > Iēsous name/figure I am not inclined to accept your premise that some 700+ years of Jewish Tanaka study and midrash never dealt with these יהושע המשיח > Iēsous ὁ Χριστὸς > 'Jesus the Christ' character prophetic verses before the the 2nd century CE.
What 'Christianity' started with, it plagiarized from earlier Jewish sources, including the actual name and title of Christianities idolatrous man/god.

I thoroughly agree with you that 'Jesus' <sic> the Disciples and Paul did NOT exist but were fictitious characters in fabricated stories.
But the NAME, title, and prophetic character of Iēsous ὁ Χριστὸς are certainly far older than any written NT composition, and would have been midrashed all to hell by Judaism long, long before ever appearing within our fabricated fictional 2nd century CE NT texts.

As revealed by the linguistic evidence of the pre-'Christian' texts, Iēsous ὁ Χριστὸς ne 'Jesus the Christ' was a prophetic figure known to, and discussed by Jews at least as early as 450 BCE.
A 'borrowed' mythical Jewish figure finally emerging in the full blown form in the fabricated fictional and mythical Gospels of the 2nd century CE.

I am not even asking you to accept or agree with this proposition, only to become aware that this is solidly based upon this NAME and this TITLE appearing in The LXX translations for hundreds of years before "Christianity' ever reared up its idolatrous god/man and murderous religion.

Sheshbazzar

Patience dear one.
This is where you are mistaken. Jewish Saul's position opposing circumcision of Gentile believers is solidly based upon both the The Law and The Prophets.
Ger toshavim 'Strangers of the Gate' were forbidden by the Laws of Moses to engage in most 'Jewish' practices, with the exception of enjoying rest on The Sabbaths.
To undergo circumcision was to convert to, and become a Jew, one with the Jews and no longer a Gentile, and hence under ALL of Jewish (Mosaic) Laws and obligations.

But there never was any Biblical obligation for any Gentile believer to do so, they could, and many did live out their entire lives remaining as Gentiles peaceably believing in and worshipping the God of the Hebrew's along with the Judean's without the myrid restrictions and obligations which went along with undergoing circumcision.

And with this the writings of the Tanaka are in perfect accord, that the promises made to Abraham and to the Fathers, were to the Nation of Israel first, and then to the Gentile 'Nations', not that these other 'Nations' would ever need become 'Jews' to become the partakers and inheritors of the good Promises along with YHWH's chosen nation Israel.

Saul the Hebrew was staunchly defending The Scriptural Faith of Law and Prophets, and all of those prophetic verses that made and that maintain a distinction between Jew and Gentile into perpetuity. (As is also made maifest in Revelations, 'The Twelve Tribes of Israel' AND 'The Nations' in the end together, yet still distinct.)

You, when talking about post 70 CE developments, are going past the time and situation of the writings of the original Hebrew and Jewish Saul that I am speaking of, the one that existed before the lying religion called Christianity co-opted and built their sand-castles upon corrupting his good words.

Leave out the added 'Paul' aspect, and those many known to be bogus 2nd-3rd century Christian invented verses and books, and you won't have near so many claims that run contrary to the fundamental aspect of Jewish doctrine.

You know that these writings have been interpolated and fabricated, there is no reason that you need to accept that the REAL Saul ever wrote most of the words that Christianity has stuffed into his mouth.
You know 'Christians' are inclined to be false witnesses, liars, and fabricators. The question is, Why are you so accepting of their 'Christianized' version of Saul the Hebrew Jew?

Sheshbazzar

It has perhaps never occurred to you that these variations were deliberately maintained by the Christian Church so as to pander to the predilections and prejudices of various sects and audiences?
The preacher down at the local church carefully selects his material to scratch the itching ears of his locality. In a different locality or under different conditions he may well employ different selections, never mentioning the former, 'to become all things to all men.'
The very multiplicity of extant Christian sects is evidence that by selection among texts, a flavor can be devised to please the palates of many tastes.

tanya

Thanks Shesh, you possess so much more faith, than I ever will. I doubt everything, and everyone, even you, friend!!!

So far as I am aware, perhaps completely wrong (again), Justin Martyr attributes to John the apostle, authorship of Revelations, not Paul the 13th apostle, self-proclaimed....

So, I am a bit lost here, Shesh, why would we care about John's authorship of anything, in the second (or, for true believers, first) century, if "Paul" lived as you suggest, before the common era began?

Apart from the quibble about dates, and authorship, two other problems remain:
1. Why, given that we know about the deceit, dishonesty, and fraud, not to mention the overt forgery, in post Nicean publications, would we wish to cite Christian sources in justifying, authenticating/proving, any position on Saul/Paul, the Jew?

2. Given the Christian mangling of all Jewish manuscripts, post Nicea, how can we be confident about Saul/Paul's position on anything, even if written, originally, in Hebrew, or Syriac/Aramaic? Do we have some source from DSS, describing this jesus fellow, as you have illustrated with the forged LXX? Maybe one can find an earlier manuscript collection, untainted by LXX. That would be a marvelous discovery!!!

Until then, I remain skeptical, disbelieving, even in someone as clearly learned and superior in every way, as you clearly are. I like what you write, and the way you express yourself so adroitly, but, I cannot accept uncritically, your idea about Saul/Paul...it is a worthy notion, and I am glad you set it forth, but it seems improbable to me.....

Your Hebrew quotes of the Greek "original" (Codex Sinaiticus) LXX, are they also found, in the same form, in DSS? In the Leningrad Codex?
יהושע המשיח

sotto voce

Ask four Jews the same question, get five answers. And that's a Jewish joke, I hasten to add. But it's not really a joke, because the Tanakh is now meaningless without the NT. It has been since 136 CE.

There's only one Christianity, of course, due to the coherence of the NT and its organic relation to the OT. The abundance of different teachings of what is purported to be Christianity is of course due to the inability of antichrists to find a single fabricated version that convinces in free societies. The Constantinian solution shattered just as soon as there was absence of coercion.

mrsonic

the pharisees sit in moses seat DO and observe everything they tell you.

Deuteronomy 17: 11 Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left.

the tanakh is meaningless without the pharisees, you must obey them sotto or you will burn in hell.



sotto, what are you doing? when are you going to become a pharisee?

tanya

Sorry, friend, I cannot endorse this idea. It seems wrong headed to me....Tanakh is a series of books written two to three thousand years ago, some of them filled with lovely poetry, and many of them with inspirational stories, and ethical dicta.

It is a worthy document, and will remain so, in my opinion, to quote Shakespeare:

So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.

Now, in our own era, we do have illustrations of huge texts being rendered obsolete, by newer publications: I am thinking of the z-80, for example, which was a very clever 16 bit cpu. That instruction manual, is today, just about useless for all purposes, except to replace the harder paper found in the Sears Roebuck Catalogue in the outhouse.....

Of course, most forum members will object to your statement, for the wrong reason, in my opinion. They will jump up and down and growl, because for them, Christianity is a form of Judaism. But for me, the Jesus story is just Hercules, part deux.

The jewish features found in the gospels, are just there as ornaments on the fragrant balsam fir, standing proudly in the living room at winter solstice....

Captain Yossarian was flying an Air Force jet fighter in Italy in 1944. Does anyone seriously doubt that precisely the same story could have been written had the plane been stationed instead in Hawaii, attacking Japanese targets? Story tellers enjoy confounding the audience with wonderful anecdotes of local spice and flavor. Catch-22 was not an Italian story. It was a nifty tale of human behaviour.

Mark was simply following his Greek counterparts, whose descriptions of Herakles provided the model for Jesus....Mark invokes ancient Jewish lore into his book, as Catch22 describes the Italian countryside....It's just flavor, nothing more.....

sotto voce

They did.

When you've shown me. Even the most orthodox Jews admit that fewer than a third of Mosaic Laws can now be applied.