Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gnosis92 · 08-02-2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Yes, we would. And in that event, nothing we now believe on the basis of those texts would be a justified belief.

Obviously a lot of texts are now lost to us from antiquity which is why I'm skeptical of the argument from silence.

gnosis92 · 08-02-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Perhaps because they had a financial disincentive to do so. Paul met with the "pillars" at Jerusalem and received permission to preach his form of Christianity in exchange for his sending money back to Jerusalem. To use a modern term, he purchased franchise rights.

That's very interesting. I tend not to think of antiquity and esp early Christianity as a "business". Your passage quotes I've read but I've never thought of as a franchise right.

Obviously, Paul and his associates had letters, in addition to money, which they sent back to the inner-circle in Jersualuem (i.e Peter and James)

Rick Sumner · 08-02-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

A better question would be: do I throw them out based on the assumption that their is no supernatural? which is the actual method of those involved with the Jesus Seminar. If that was my method I would first have to prove that miracles are impossible and that the supernatural does not exist. I cannot do this and therefore I would not reject the examples you gave based on my unfounded assumption just so that liberal scholars would give me a seat at the table. I would find a more credible way of excusing claims.

1) Miracles are, by definition, impossible.

2) It's always seemed odd to me that this charge is uniformly levelled against the JSem by their critics, but almost equally universally never levelled against anyone else. Their approach to miracles is pretty bog-standard, and not restricted to "liberal scholars." Crossan et al are wrong for many, many reasons. This isn't one of them.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Doug Shaver · 08-02-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

Obviously a lot of texts are now lost to us from antiquity which is why I'm skeptical of the argument from silence.

An argument from silence should always provoke skepticism, at first. But there are situations where we reasonably expect evidence to exist if certain things happened. And then if we don't find the evidence, it becomes reasonable to doubt that those things happened.

Rick Sumner · 08-10-2006, 09:40 AM

Just came across a good summary of authority in honor/shame societies (compounding the original posters point).

In general the Mediterranean people regarded themselves as irreplaceable, or at least they tried their utmost to become irreplaceable. If the official at the gate had asked for extra aid, it would have been tantamount to a confession that he could be replaced. Our modern idea is that no man is irreplaceable; the ancients believed exactly the opposite and tried to live accordingly. . .

In the early church the apostles were especially seen as irreplaceable because of their first hand knowledge of Jesus’ words or deeds and because of the fact that Jesus appeared to them after his resurrection (1 Cor 15:3–7). Their preaching (Acts 2:14–24) and miracles (Acts 5:12–16), as well as their role as leaders when arguments had to be settled (Acts 15), further underlined their honourable positions as pillars (Gal 2:9) of the Christian society. Paul struggled to prove his apostolic authority to his congregations, for some did not recognise him as an apostle (see 1 Cor 4 and 9). Therefore he also offered his services as manager and accomplice to God, among other things. He saw himself as someone to whom all the sacred mysteries have been entrusted (1 Cor 4:1; 2 Cor 6:1). He emphasized his power by claiming that Jesus also appeared to him (1 Cor 15:8–11), and that God himself has entrusted the gospel to him (Gal. 1:15–16)

Bruce Malina and Stephan Joubert, A Time Travel to the World of Jesus, (Halfway House: Orion, 1997).

Amaleq13 · 08-10-2006, 11:12 AM

Rick,

Amazon.com doesn't have an exact match for your reference but this might be an earlier version with only Malina credited as the author:

Windows on the World of Jesus: Time Travel to Ancient Judea

Rick Sumner · 08-10-2006, 11:24 AM

Same book.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

gnosis92 · 08-10-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

An argument from silence should always provoke skepticism, at first. But there are situations where we reasonably expect evidence to exist if certain things happened. And then if we don't find the evidence, it becomes reasonable to doubt that those things happened.

Obviously the extent of Paul's silence on Jesus, and the alternative explanations, such as Paul was writing occassional letters addressed to specific issues, or that Paul's audience knew all the basics, or even that historical details were not much relevance could plausibly explain some, if not all, of the silence.

Toto · 08-10-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

. . .

In the early church the apostles were especially seen as irreplaceable because of their first hand knowledge of Jesus’ words or deeds and because of the fact that Jesus appeared to them after his resurrection (1 Cor 15:3–7). Their preaching (Acts 2:14–24) and miracles (Acts 5:12–16), as well as their role as leaders when arguments had to be settled (Acts 15), further underlined their honourable positions as pillars (Gal 2:9) of the Christian society. Paul struggled to prove his apostolic authority to his congregations, for some did not recognise him as an apostle (see 1 Cor 4 and 9). Therefore he also offered his services as manager and accomplice to God, among other things. He saw himself as someone to whom all the sacred mysteries have been entrusted (1 Cor 4:1; 2 Cor 6:1). He emphasized his power by claiming that Jesus also appeared to him (1 Cor 15:8–11), and that God himself has entrusted the gospel to him (Gal. 1:15–16)

Bruce Malina and Stephan Joubert, A Time Travel to the World of Jesus, (Halfway House: Orion, 1997).

The sociological observations aside, this is highly speculative and assumes that there was a historical Jesus with historical apostles, and that the early church valued the chain back to the historical Jesus. But there is no evidence of this, and the evidence we do have contradicts it. The earliest church searched the scriptures for Jesus, not historical connections. It is only in the late 2nd century that church fathers start to emphasize (or create?) the historical connections.

Doug Shaver · 08-10-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

the alternative explanations, such as Paul was writing occassional letters addressed to specific issues, or that Paul's audience knew all the basics, or even that historical details were not much relevance could plausibly explain some, if not all, of the silence.

The plausibility of any particular alternative explanation has to be judged in light of its fit with all the data relevant to Jesus' existence. Too many people discuss Paul's letters as if no other fact about Christianity's origins had any bearing on how they should be interpreted.

08-10-2006, 09:40 AM	#35
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	Just came across a good summary of authority in honor/shame societies (compounding the original posters point). In general the Mediterranean people regarded themselves as irreplaceable, or at least they tried their utmost to become irreplaceable. If the official at the gate had asked for extra aid, it would have been tantamount to a confession that he could be replaced. Our modern idea is that no man is irreplaceable; the ancients believed exactly the opposite and tried to live accordingly. . . In the early church the apostles were especially seen as irreplaceable because of their first hand knowledge of Jesus’ words or deeds and because of the fact that Jesus appeared to them after his resurrection (1 Cor 15:3–7). Their preaching (Acts 2:14–24) and miracles (Acts 5:12–16), as well as their role as leaders when arguments had to be settled (Acts 15), further underlined their honourable positions as pillars (Gal 2:9) of the Christian society. Paul struggled to prove his apostolic authority to his congregations, for some did not recognise him as an apostle (see 1 Cor 4 and 9). Therefore he also offered his services as manager and accomplice to God, among other things. He saw himself as someone to whom all the sacred mysteries have been entrusted (1 Cor 4:1; 2 Cor 6:1). He emphasized his power by claiming that Jesus also appeared to him (1 Cor 15:8–11), and that God himself has entrusted the gospel to him (Gal. 1:15–16) Bruce Malina and Stephan Joubert, A Time Travel to the World of Jesus, (Halfway House: Orion, 1997).

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08-10-2006, 11:12 AM	#36
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Rick, Amazon.com doesn't have an exact match for your reference but this might be an earlier version with only Malina credited as the author: Windows on the World of Jesus: Time Travel to Ancient Judea

08-10-2006, 11:24 AM	#37
Rick Sumner Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada Posts: 2,612	Same book. Regards, Rick Sumner

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