Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gregor · 11-16-2006, 10:53 AM

JW - Let me via for messiahship, because I will make the following prophesy:

Tom Terrific will run away after this proselytizing spam or be banned in 24 hours.

So let it be written. . . so let it be so.

NatSciNarg · 11-16-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Actually you are sinning bearing false witness since it doesn't read "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question," but it says "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?"

As it is written, it can still be read as an invitation to overturn the basic proofs that beg the question. Perhaps it is my ropey grasp of grammar, but it doesn't affect that fact that I read it in that way. I'm not 'bearing any false witness' about how I read it.

Quote:

Don't try to be couth and cunning because that is unethical. Can you see how you are in fact "begging the question", that is to say, adding in an assumption in your response that has no basis?

After all these years attempting to avoid being uncouth, I now discover that being the opposite is unethical.

Quote:

You can't be saved by being an agnostic for Jesus said if you are not for Him, you are against Him and since God is proven in creation, you are without excuse. You have a spirit of God-consciousness, but you reject God's salvation, so you are going to hell.

Welcome to IIDB - I can see you're going to have a fun time.

Toto · 11-16-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?
You have the 9 NT writers in agreement.

Except for when they disagree

Quote:

You have 40 writers in 66 books over 1500 years in complete agreement. Nothing in human history has this kind of harmony.

Yawn. The agreement is far from complete.

Quote:

You have James who was a family skeptic, who then believed because he said he saw Jesus resurrected.

Wrong. You have one document that describes a brother of Jesus named James, and says that Jesus' family all thought he was insane. You have other documents describing a church leader named James. You have a letter from Paul saying that Jesus appeared to James. Then you have other much later people who weave these together and say that James was a skeptic until Jesus appeared to him, and he went on to become a believer. . . but there is no evidence of this.

Quote:

Paul said he saw Jesus resurrected and then believed after persecuting Christians.

So?

Quote:

You have all the original 12 apostles (one replaced Judas) in agreement and martyred for seeing Jesus resurrected as first-hand testimonies, and most of the 2nd generation apostles were murdered.

Wrong. Christian legend says that the apostles were martyred, but historians do not support this.

Quote:

Paul, Peter and James met together in Jerusalem and discussed several things.

Like "How's the weather?"

Quote:

James the brother of John was martyred for claiming he saw Jesus resurrected.

There is absolutely no proof that James was martyred or that the reason was his claim to have seen Jesus resurrected.

Quote:

You have 42 writers talking about Christ in the first 150 years of his death.
The Emperor Claudius died 11 years after Jesus and only 10 writers talked about him within 150 years of his death.

Within 150 years of the death of Julius Caesar, only 5 writers spoke about his military conquests.

You are relying on some early dating of Christian witnesses, but in any case, writing about Jesus does not prove that he was the supernatural son of God.

Quote:

There were 11 different group sizes recorded that saw Jesus resurrected (at least). 500 saw Him and many of them were still alive when Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15.

This is not a "record." It is a passage in one of Paul's letters, but not everyone is sure that Paul wrote it, or what it actually signifies.

Quote:

They even saw Jesus rise up to heaven in His rapture.

You are confusing things. The 500 did not claim to see Jesus rise up to heaven - that was reserved for a few apostles in the gospels, which are all fictional anyway.

Quote:

Jesus was the most selfless man who ever lived and his teaching reaches the deepest into our spirits to change us. He was also the only sinless man that ever lived.

This is a statement of faith, not the subject of this forum.

Quote:

He died as prophesied the Prophets said he would and as Jesus said He would for the salvation of all those who receive Him for eternal life and forgiveness of sins. He was the suffering servant (Is. 53)
His miracles were miraculous.

So why did most Jews of the time reject him?

Quote:

The probability of fulfilling 62 in Christ prophecies is less than 1 in a trillion.

Unless you rig the numbers...

Quote:

Jesus said clearly He is God and only a perfect sacrifice can atone for sins. Only the Creator could do that.

Not so clear, since Christians and other believers in Jesus can't agree on that.

Quote:

Since creation was intelligent and God created, then it would stand to reason by His graces that He would enter into His creation to give us a road map to life (for those who would receive it).

If creation were intelligently designed, it would stand to reason that the creator would not leave us dangling, looking for answers in obscure ancient texts.

Quote:

Even if Christ does not return for a million or even a billion years from now, and there are millions even billions of books written in the future, there will always be one book that stands far above all the rest: the 66 books of the Bible as the purest conscience and intuition and communion in spirit.

There's no way to prove or disprove a statement such as this.

Quote:

God needs to forgive us and the only way to do that is through His Son's death who takes all sin unto Himself since we are all sinners and all sin leads to death and the second death (hell).
God loves you and a most loving act of all is to enter into creation to die for you to save you.

This is not the subject of this forum.

Quote:

The Apostles all went to their death proclaiming visually witnessing seeing Jesus resurrected in His physically spiritual body that they could touch. They didn't even want to believe it to begin with when they heard about until they saw it for themselves. It was not just doubting Thomas that had this faithlessness.

Would men lie about such a thing? They would have no faith in a false claim, a false Jesus if Jesus didn't resurrect by the Holy Spirit.

More Christian mythology. "Why would they die for a lie?" Why have so many people through history died for so many lies and false beliefs?

Quote:

If this is true, then there is a heaven and a hell, a new city in the new earth and a dimension to keep the unsaved eternally separated from God because they are fully aware in their spirit of God-consciousness that they are born into sin and need salvation; so, if they don't want to be saved it is because that is their choice, and they have no excuse and no one to blame.

Quote:

By God's good graces He reemphasizes what is already known in our spirit.
This evidence far outweighs the evidence of atheists or agnostics, so logic and conscience states you should come to the cross to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. If I am wrong, then there is no loss since you will just cease to exist. If I am right, the consequences are eternal.
What are you going to do?

What am I going to do? If you don't come up with something more intelligent, some discussion related to Biblical Criticism or History, I'm going to move this little exercise in proselytization and bad history to ~Elsewhere.

Amaleq13 · 11-16-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Actually you are sinning bearing false witness since it doesn't read "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question," but it says "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?

I think you missed the point which was, I believe, that you refer to your "proofs" as begging the question even though "begging the question" is a logical fallacy and you clearly believe your alleged proofs are not logically flawed.

In other words, it is very much like starting your post saying "Basic proofs of Jesus are logically flawed, can you overturn them?"

Understand? If you think your "proofs" are valid, you do not think they beg the question.

ETA: Whether you intended it to read that way or not, it does read that way.

Mythra · 11-16-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

There were 11 different group sizes recorded that saw Jesus resurrected (at least). 500 saw Him and many of them were still alive when Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15.They even saw Jesus rise up to heaven in His rapture.

And, you don't find it the least bit odd that the earliest gospel story fails to mention any of this? Mark ends with an empty tomb. End of story.

Are you really so naive to think that whoever wrote Mark's gospel didn't feel that 500 people watching Jesus fly up into the sky was worth mentioning?

chapka · 11-16-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?

Yes. Yes I can.

Quote:

You have the 9 NT writers in agreement.
You have 40 writers in 66 books over 1500 years in complete agreement. Nothing in human history has this kind of harmony.

There are actually many more early Christian writings than what ended up in the New Testament. What happened is, at some point, the early Catholic Church got together and decided which ones were "canonical". It's only natural that they would reject ones which seemed contradictory. And even after all that effort, they in fact still ended up with a whole mess of contradictions, starting with the very basic question of genaeology. Here's a list to get you started.

Quote:

You have James who was a family skeptic, who then believed because he said he saw Jesus resurrected.
Paul said he saw Jesus resurrected and then believed after persecuting Christians.
You have all the original 12 apostles (one replaced Judas) in agreement and martyred for seeing Jesus resurrected as first-hand testimonies, and most of the 2nd generation apostles were murdered.
Paul, Peter and James met together in Jerusalem and discussed several things.
James the brother of John was martyred for claiming he saw Jesus resurrected

Most of these are only witnessed to in Christian writings, and as for the rest--someone being willing to die for a belief doesn't mean that belief is true. Otherwise you'd have to be a Muslim as well as a Christian. Not to mention a Heaven's Gate member and a French royalist.

Quote:

You have 42 writers talking about Christ in the first 150 years of his death.
The Emperor Claudius died 11 years after Jesus and only 10 writers talked about him within 150 years of his death.
Within 150 years of the death of Julius Caesar, only 5 writers spoke about his military conquests.

Please list the writers you're referring to in each case. Otherwise, how can I evaluate your evidence? Also, please provide the number of writers who wrote about each figure within a generation of his death, and explain how we should account for the fact that most historical books that did not mention Jesus (and many that did) were systematically hunted down and burnt as heretical by Christians for a thousand years or so.

Quote:

There were 11 different group sizes recorded that saw Jesus resurrected (at least). 500 saw Him and many of them were still alive when Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15.

First of all, again, we have writing only from a Christian source.

Second of all, how many of those 500 were living in Corinth?

Quote:

Jesus was the most selfless man who ever lived and his teaching reaches the deepest into our spirits to change us. He was also the only sinless man that ever lived.

Not true. He got angry once, and he talked back to his father once.

Quote:

His miracles were miraculous.

What kind of miracles aren't miraculous?

Quote:

The probability of fulfilling 62 in Christ prophecies is less than 1 in a trillion.

The probablility that, in the hundred years or so between Jesus' death and the time the New Testament was written down, his followers added things in to make him look good is considerably more likely.

hasselhoff · 11-16-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Jesus was the most selfless man who ever lived and his teaching reaches the deepest into our spirits to change us.

I know a fig tree that might disagree.

Quote:

Even if Christ does not return for a million or even a billion years from now, and there are millions even billions of books written in the future, there will always be one book that stands far above all the rest: the 66 books of the Bible as the purest conscience and intuition and communion in spirit.

Ah, yes, the purity of conscience of Psalms 137:9: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Quote:

If I am wrong, then there is no loss since you will just cease to exist. If I am right, the consequences are eternal.
What are you going to do?

Wonder for a bit how anyone can fail to see the obvious flaws in Pascal's Wager, then have a good laugh at your expense.

Clete · 11-16-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

Jesus said clearly He is God and only a perfect sacrifice can atone for sins. Only the Creator could do that.

"I am God and only a perfect sacrifice can atone for sins."
—Clete

There's one point disproven for you.

hasselhoff · 11-16-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatSciNarg

After all these years attempting to avoid being uncouth, I now discover that being the opposite is unethical.

If you hadn't hardened your heart to Jesus, you would know that couthness is an abomination in the eyes of the lord.

Clete · 11-16-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT

His miracles were miraculous.

I'm with Julian on this—hilarious. :rolling:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-16-2006, 10:53 AM	#11
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	JW - Let me via for messiahship, because I will make the following prophesy: Tom Terrific will run away after this proselytizing spam or be banned in 24 hours. So let it be written. . . so let it be so.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.