Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 11-13-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

What kind of power did the Pharisees have in 2nd temple Judaism?

They were one of many Jewish religious sects at the time, not necessarily dominant. I don't know how much power they had, but the Sadducees probably had more power.

Right, the Sadducees were supposedly the "establishment", wealthy and powerful, while the Pharisees were one of the offshoots of the Hasidim of Maccabean times (one suggestion is that the name is an epithet from "Persian"). By the 1st C the Pharisees seem to have retreated from politics (cf their opposition to Alexander Janneus). Their embrace of the Oral Law and midrash, and their belief in resurrection and messianism make them cousins if not closer relatives of Jewish-Christians.

show_no_mercy · 11-13-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

while the Pharisees were one of the offshoots of the Hasidim of Maccabean times (one suggestion is that the name is an epithet from "Persian").

I'm relatively certain that "Pharisee" comes from the Hebrew word perushim which means "separated [ones]".

ApostateAbe · 11-13-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Someone with articles published in a peer-reviewed journal of Biblical studies, someone with a professorship at a university in Biblical studies, or at least someone with a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. I imagine there may be a few such people who disagree with those elements, people you can count on one hand.

After diligent searching I think I found a significant number.

Christ_myth_theory

I'm not sure this is more than you can count on one hand, but it is more than the number of fingers on a normal human's hand; seems to be more than the number of fingers and toes for a normal human.

The page contains links to the Wikipedia biographies of each of those people. Count how many have a Ph.D. in Biblical scholarship or have articles on Biblical scholarship published in peer-reviewed journals or have professorships in Biblical scholarship. I couldn't find one.

ApostateAbe · 11-13-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

..
Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?

traveling - no evidence for this. Paul doesn't say anything about traveling. But lots of people traveled in those days, on the good Roman roads.

Jewish - everyone now agrees on this, but this may be a reaction to the Holocaust. A century ago, this was not part of the consensus.

12 disciples - this is a symbolic number, and no one can identify the 12. I think some scholars like Burton Mack would hedge on this.

Peter - the Peter of the gospels is highly mythologized. I think there would be some hedging on this.

came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment - I think this gets into an area that is not part of the consensus. Some of the historical Jesus theories have him primarily in conflict with the Romans.

and the Pharisees - except for those who follow Maccoby and think that Jesus was a Pharisee

executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate - this is probably part of the consensus.

Yes, you are right, thank you.

bacht · 11-13-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

while the Pharisees were one of the offshoots of the Hasidim of Maccabean times (one suggestion is that the name is an epithet from "Persian").

I'm relatively certain that "Pharisee" comes from the Hebrew word perushim which means "separated [ones]".

Thanks

No Robots · 11-13-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Jewish - everyone now agrees on this, but this may be a reaction to the Holocaust. A century ago, this was not part of the consensus.

Certainly, Jewish scholars of a century ago were affirming Christ's Jewishness:

In [Isaac] Deutscher's time [1907-1967] Jesus was respected and even revered by many modern Jews. Jewish enlightenment brought about a new tolerant attitude toward Christianity, especially with regard to Jesus. The famous Jewish historian of the nineteenth century, Heinrich Graetz, describes Jesus as a true Jew who led the simple people back to an authentic and unostentatious Judaism. Jewish theologians of the twentieth century, such as Constantin Brunner and Martin Buber have taken a particularly positive attitude towards Jesus.--"'The Non-Jewish Jew': The History of a Radical Typology" / Shmuel Almog

semiopen · 11-13-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

After diligent searching I think I found a significant number.

Christ_myth_theory

I'm not sure this is more than you can count on one hand, but it is more than the number of fingers on a normal human's hand; seems to be more than the number of fingers and toes for a normal human.

The page contains links to the Wikipedia biographies of each of those people. Count how many have a Ph.D. in Biblical scholarship or have articles on Biblical scholarship published in peer-reviewed journals or have professorships in Biblical scholarship. I couldn't find one.

Whew, I have to read the crap I post?

Earl_Doherty has articles in peer reviewed journals

Journal_of_Higher_Criticism, this didn't mention his education.

Looking more closely, you seem to be right, his existence is academically accepted.

Steven Carr · 11-13-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?

Every single one of those details is missing in the earliest Christian writer.

A bit like the way for 30 years after his death, nobody mentions the current scholarly consensus about the skill of Elvis Presley in tap-dancing and ice-skating.

ApostateAbe · 11-13-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?

Every single one of those details is missing in the earliest Christian writer.

A bit like the way for 30 years after his death, nobody mentions the current scholarly consensus about the skill of Elvis Presley in tap-dancing and ice-skating.

The letters of Paul do lack detail about the life of Jesus, although Paul does treat Peter as a Christian leader, and Paul mentions the crucifixion of Jesus plenty of times. The gospel of Mark and the gospel of Q are later and more untrustworthy, but they are the earliest Christian documents intended to contain details on Jesus, and the scholarly consensus seems to treat them as such, whether that is a good idea or not.

ApostateAbe · 11-13-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The page contains links to the Wikipedia biographies of each of those people. Count how many have a Ph.D. in Biblical scholarship or have articles on Biblical scholarship published in peer-reviewed journals or have professorships in Biblical scholarship. I couldn't find one.

Whew, I have to read the crap I post?

Earl_Doherty has articles in peer reviewed journals

Journal_of_Higher_Criticism, this didn't mention his education.

Looking more closely, you seem to be right, his existence is academically accepted.

Cool. I recently learned about Earl Doherty's view of early Christianity, because he is one of the more "respected" of the JM advocates, and his theory surprised me because of how absurd it seemed. He thinks that the earliest Christians knew and believed that Jesus was only a myth, which if true ought to be very clear from records of theological debates and arguments in early Christian writings. JM is popular among atheists, and I can only reason that it is primarily because the JM position fits their way of thinking about God and fires up their activist spirits. Evidence be damned.

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