Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 05-12-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeist

2. Christian apologists also make the argument that there is no documented evidence of mass-hallucinations, thus the skeptic cannot make the contention that Jesus' appearances to the 500 or to his disciples were mass hallucinations.

So tens of thousands of people really did see the Virgin Mary appear on an office building in Clearwater, Florida!

Steven Carr · 05-12-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi

The inclusion of the doubting Thomas is obviously a literary cheat...

Not as blatant a literary device as Mark's having Jesus crucified with a good thief and a bad thief next to him, making the choice between good and evil that Christians say must be made about believing in the death of Jesus.

That really is very blatant storytelling, which even JK Rowling would reject as too artificial a device if she had a plot line where Harry Potter had to choose between the good side and the dark side.

Steven Carr · 05-12-2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You may be right. Mary might have tricked Joseph into believing that her baby was of a god when it was actually from another man. And then maybe Joseph went beserk and started to 'see' things.

Matthew 1:20, But while he thought of these things, behold the angel of the of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying thou son of David, Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

This dream changed the life of Joseph.

So it must be true that what happens in dreams is real!

Christian claims that real messages from real angels are conveyed in dreams means that Christian claims that theology does not clash with science are junk.

John Kesler · 05-12-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Not as blatant a literary device as Mark's having Jesus crucified with a good thief and a bad thief next to him, making the choice between good and evil that Christians say must be made about believing in the death of Jesus.

In Mark's account, both "thieves" are "bad":

Quote:

27 And with him they crucified two bandits, one on his right and one on his left. 29 Those who passed by derided him, shaking their heads and saying, "Aha! You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30save yourself, and come down from the cross!" 31 In the same way the chief priests, along with the scribes, were also mocking him among themselves and saying, "He saved others; he cannot save himself. 32 Let the Messiah, the King of Israel, come down from the cross now, so that we may see and believe." Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.

The "penitent thief" story appears in Luke 23:39-43.

spin · 05-12-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

In Mark's account, both "thieves" are "bad":

The "penitent thief" story appears in Luke 23:39-43.

Gosh, you'da thunk Mark coulda got the story straight before he wrote it.

spin

Solo · 05-12-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Matthew 1:20, But while he thought of these things, behold the angel of the of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying thou son of David, Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

This dream changed the life of Joseph.

So it must be true that what happens in dreams is real!

Christian claims that real messages from real angels are conveyed in dreams means that Christian claims that theology does not clash with science are junk..

Consider it possible that the first three gospels are interpreted experiences that visited the Jesus spirit-seekers in lieu of sleep. No magic mushrooms a la Allegro were necessary to dream up Jesus. The early movement rested on experiments with suppressed sleep suggested to spiritualist adepts by natural insomniacs. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-8)

Jiri

Steven Carr · 05-12-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

In Mark's account, both "thieves" are "bad":

Thanks, I should have remembered that. I will in the future.

Gawen · 05-12-2007, 09:16 AM

Well, the irony for me is (if I have it right) Jesus tells his disciples to go out and preach amongst the Gentiles. They don't do this, but go back to their former jobs. When Jesus comes back some days later, the disciples don't recognise him. But within 40 days, 500 regular people do.

If I have this right, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Koyaanisqatsi · 05-13-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Steven Carr: Not as blatant a literary device as Mark's having Jesus crucified with a good thief and a bad thief next to him, making the choice between good and evil that Christians say must be made about believing in the death of Jesus.

I didn't realize there was a distinction of "good" and "bad" with regard to a thief accoring to Jehovah. Indeed, it does sound like another Roman misinterpretation of Jewish dogma.

Quote:

MORE: That really is very blatant storytelling, which even JK Rowling would reject as too artificial a device if she had a plot line where Harry Potter had to choose between the good side and the dark side.

You know JK, do you?

Johnny Skeptic · 05-14-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeist

Hi Peter,

What then would be a reasonable explanation for the disciples belief?

Licona and Habermas alway argue: “Liars make poor martyrs" and "If Jesus wasn’t resurrected the disciples would not have said that he resurrected from the dead but rather that he never died."

Which martyrs are you talking about?

I am not aware of any credible historical records regarding what the disciples said about anything. Are you?

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05-12-2007, 09:16 AM	#18
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	Well, the irony for me is (if I have it right) Jesus tells his disciples to go out and preach amongst the Gentiles. They don't do this, but go back to their former jobs. When Jesus comes back some days later, the disciples don't recognise him. But within 40 days, 500 regular people do. If I have this right, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

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