Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JohNeo · 09-28-2004, 10:07 AM

About two weeks ago I said I was going to stay off of these Islamic threads, and goddammit here I am again. They do nothing but piss me off, and I end up getting dragged into the fight. If anyone sees me posting on this thread again, please send me a friendly reminder.

JohNeo

Plognark · 09-28-2004, 10:09 AM

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my mistake :banghead:

No big deal. I'm still surprised this thread is still going though

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I have a great doubt myself about the historical existence of a guy called Jesus and i am not a believer in Islam but it bothers me when Christians attack Islam and fail to see the shit that they already have, Sindy as an example.

Fair enough; my mistake for thinking you might be a muslim from the tone of your posts (should have checked first, duh) :banghead:

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the best way to handle a Christian like this is to be nasty and rude, this is my tactic with them and it kept JW and other assholes away from me when i was in America.

Personally i've never been a fan of such discussion tactics, although I can get annoyed and become rude in the face of complete obstinance. I've got to live here, so I try to be as diplomatic as possible.

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She was a Palestinian girl on this board and i wrote my profile like this as a joke with her but i forgot to change it.

Ah, ok

Mageth · 09-28-2004, 10:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Answerer

So much for moderate muslims...........especially those who oppose secularism for the sake of a modern caliphate or Islamic state (remind me of a modern chinese confucian state). By the way, Muslim nations that are doing quite well are actually practising secularism, for example, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

At least some branches of Islam actually developed and put into practice a form of secularism, a mechanism for the separation of "church" and state (though by no means "perfect" by our modern standards), centuries ago.

Again, read Armstrong's books, esp. The Battle for God, if you're interested in learning more about this topic.

Answerer · 09-28-2004, 10:20 AM

I did read her books before, even though I don't really agree with her on a couple of things.

Mageth · 09-28-2004, 10:22 AM

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Originally Posted by Answerer

I did read her books before, even though I don't really agree with her on a couple of things.

My recommendation was intended as a general recommendation to all interested in learning more about the history of Islam (and Christianity, and Judaism).

Cynthia of Syracuse · 09-28-2004, 10:59 AM

Looks like a few forceful reminders are needed.

Personal insults, deliberately inflammatory remarks and personal comments ARE NOT PERMITTED. Derailing or posting off-topic ARE STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. If someone violates these rules and guidelines DO NOT reply to them in-thread. Use the "Report Bad Post" button, and let the mods handle it.

This thread is deteriorating into a flamewar. If it doesn't stop NOW, it's lockdown & ~E~-bound.

lpetrich · 09-28-2004, 01:02 PM

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Originally Posted by ayman

3- Islam does respect woman, deals with both male and female as equals and integrated pair.

Why not as individuals?

And where are all the female Islamic religious leaders? Female mullahs, imams, etc. There are some in China and India, but those are both kaffir countries. Where are they in officially Islamic countries?

It's not enough to have a female leader every now and then; that has never stopped a society from being blatantly sexist. How feminist was English society under either Queen Elizabeth I or Queen Victoria? Women have to have good positions throughout the entire society.

Look at this bboard. Both sexes coexist without trouble, and members of both sexes can get respected and/or in positions of authority. Which Islamic societies can point to anything similar?

Tuvar Ane Ingolenen · 09-28-2004, 02:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Mageth

Unfortunately, my calls for reason, respect, and, umm, education seems to have mostly fallen on deaf ears.

Absolutely nothing is to be gained by anyone, Christian, Moslem, or atheist, throwing accustations at the members of the religions, or harping on how the texts of either of the two religions "promote violence". All that accomplishes is stoking the flames of hatred and intolerance.

Sensible words indeed.

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We have Christians on this thread expounding on how their religion and texts promote peace and tolerance. Note that we also have Moslems doing the same for their religion and texts. Unfortunately, we have theists on both sides, and atheists, continually harping on how one, the other, or both religions and their texts "promote violence".

But, the scriptures do contain passages that, on the face of it, do promote violence, and...

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Let's listen to those reasonable voices from the two religions (and I'm speaking to both theists and atheists here).

I've yet to hear a reasonable voice, explain how these passages should be read. Or pehaps that they best be left unread. What do these passages mean to the reasonable muslem ( I'm sure there are many )?
What am I to make of (what looks like) the, hatred, or at least extreme disrespect towards unbelievers?

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We all hopefully can acknowledge that both religions have spawned intolerance, and violence, and fanatics, in the past and in the present, but that that is primarily the result of intolerant, violent and fanatical people, and not solely the result of the particular religion.

Yes, the unreasonable people tend to be the loud ones. But, the reasonable people seem to be able to do no better than asserting 'but there is good stuff too!'. They are not able to dispell my worries.

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If we want to do something about the future, we need to work to support those that are stressing the peaceful, tolerant aspects of their religion and texts. Christians need to acknowledge that there are many Moslems that are distressed by the militancy of the Islamic extremists, and vice versa.
And we atheists need to listen to those moderate voices from the two religions that are seeking to point out that their religion and texts can be understood to support peace and tolerance.

I hear no moderate voices. But I might not be listening carefully enough.

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We, of course, don't believe either religion is "true", but we damn well will be better off if we can help get both religions to be more tolerant of each other (and us, and other religions) in this world. And continually stressing the intolerant extermists in the two religions without acknowledging that they are in the minority and that most in both religions prefer peace and tolerance is counter-productive to that goal.

I do dare to hope that human nature is stronger than scripture, though my worries that this hope is vain remain.

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- Mageth, trying to serve as peacemaker (and recall that both religions stress that their members should do the same)

P.S. - I'll again stress that anyone on this thread that is really interested in this subject should read Karen Armstrong's two books, A History of God and The Battle for God. A little education can go a long way towards eliminating the many misconceptions of both religions that have been thrown around like beads at the Mardi Gras on this thread.

Hoping that the quieter voice of reason will prevail in the end, Tuvar.

Mageth · 09-28-2004, 02:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Tuvar Ane Ingolenen

But, the scriptures do contain passages that, on the face of it, do promote violence, and...

I've yet to hear a reasonable voice, explain how these passages should be read. Or pehaps that they best be left unread. What do these passages mean to the reasonable muslem ( I'm sure there are many )?
What am I to make of (what looks like) the, hatred, or at least extreme disrespect towards unbelievers?

The following page is just one of many that defends the Quran against charges that it promotes violence:

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa090402a.htm

(Heh - a bit interesting that there's a "date singles" ad with a scantily-dressed woman in the margin of the page when I brought it up.

)

I believe others on this thread have also defended Islam in various ways, and of course there have been Christians defending their own texts against similar charges.

mirage · 09-28-2004, 03:00 PM

Mainstream Muslim interpretation is pretty non-violent, and the vast majority of Muslims, like the vast majority of people, abhor violence.

However, the Qur'an is a pretty hellfire and brimstone document full of threats and sadistic images of hell, like the OT, except with all the emphasis on hell and less on arbitrary massacres from God. Large sections of the later "medina" surahs are clearly aimed at getting early Muslims to get off their arse and fight. These verses are really quite unhelpful when they persist as God's final word for all people and all times.

They take quite a bit of ad hoc reinterpretation to sanitise.

Unfortunatley the "Umma" seems to be on a rigidly literalist tip in modern times (in contrast to past ages). If a central tenet of the Faith is that the scripture is the literal Arabic word of Allah, there isn't much room for maneouver.

09-28-2004, 10:59 AM	#126
Cynthia of Syracuse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 2,821	Mod warning Looks like a few forceful reminders are needed. Personal insults, deliberately inflammatory remarks and personal comments ARE NOT PERMITTED. Derailing or posting off-topic ARE STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. If someone violates these rules and guidelines DO NOT reply to them in-thread. Use the "Report Bad Post" button, and let the mods handle it. This thread is deteriorating into a flamewar. If it doesn't stop NOW, it's lockdown & ~E~-bound.

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09-28-2004, 10:07 AM	#121
JohNeo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas-Plano-Irving MSA, Texas Posts: 3,376	About two weeks ago I said I was going to stay off of these Islamic threads, and goddammit here I am again. They do nothing but piss me off, and I end up getting dragged into the fight. If anyone sees me posting on this thread again, please send me a friendly reminder. JohNeo

09-28-2004, 10:20 AM	#124
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I did read her books before, even though I don't really agree with her on a couple of things.

09-28-2004, 03:00 PM	#130
mirage Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: UK Posts: 8,524	Mainstream Muslim interpretation is pretty non-violent, and the vast majority of Muslims, like the vast majority of people, abhor violence. However, the Qur'an is a pretty hellfire and brimstone document full of threats and sadistic images of hell, like the OT, except with all the emphasis on hell and less on arbitrary massacres from God. Large sections of the later "medina" surahs are clearly aimed at getting early Muslims to get off their arse and fight. These verses are really quite unhelpful when they persist as God's final word for all people and all times. They take quite a bit of ad hoc reinterpretation to sanitise. Unfortunatley the "Umma" seems to be on a rigidly literalist tip in modern times (in contrast to past ages). If a central tenet of the Faith is that the scripture is the literal Arabic word of Allah, there isn't much room for maneouver.

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