Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 08:49 AM

I have published ALL the relevant references to Genesis 1:26 in Clement in another thread. It is stupid to develop an argument like you do. We can't start with what Clement SHOULD believe IF he were orthodox. We have to deal with what IS and Clement says over and over again that the first creation was according to the image and later with Jesus according to the likeness. Marqe (= Mark) in the Mimar Book Four speaks in terms of a creation according to BARA (= to make, create, form) at the beginning and QARA (= to call, proclaim etc.) in the end but it is an identical formulation in all other respects.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 09:01 AM

Here is one passage from the Mimar Book Four (the chapter is even more explicit):

Quote:

The TEN FOUNDATIONS that are revealed in Genesis stood there to magnify and also to perfect. Great is this prophet the like of whom has not arisen since Adam and never will arise! See how it is in Genesis and number the letters—six—like the six days, for each one resembles the other; and the name which brought all created things into being sealed the whole. Therefore He said, "God finished" (Gen. ii. 2). BERESIT was the starting-point and God finished (ibid. Targ.). Also the six days, Sabbath and holiness.

Therefore the great prophet Moses proclaimed at the beginning KI (FOR). Since these things came in the name (ibid.) KI became the medium of prophethood. BERESIT is a beginning; so KI is a beginning, and God is in the beginning and at the end, for it is with His name that he is vested and strengthened. Therefore he began by saying, For in the name (ibid.).

Note the greatness of his knowledge. What he did in the name is a mystery; it established the glory with which his Lord vested him.

The Lord said it of the Form of Adam, for by it it was established; by God it was perfected.—Then the Lord God formed man (Gen. ii.7). For I will proclaim in the name of the Lord (Deut. xxxii. 3) is a renewal of the mention in Genesis, and the name with which he was vested and the great name whose secret he taught. Moses was magnified mightily in knowledge, wholly of faith. The secret of Genesis—know how it is; the great name (YHWH) and the word KI were heard from the mouth of Moses.

The mouth of the Divine One and that of the prophetic one were alike. We have seen a word which the True One wrote—BARA. What is its meaning? He wrote In the beginning ... created (BARA) (Gen. i. 1 ) , and Moses at his beginning said, "For in the name" (Deut. xxxii. 3). BARA was said because the True One there planned and created by His will, and Moses said in his great knowledge, " I will proclaim" (= QARA ibid.), just like the word BARA. Genesis comprises the six days and all the commandments that were written in the law. Praise be to the Lord of the world who endures alone and never changes! [Mimar 4.1]

I can continue to cite from the most holy text of the Samaritans after the Pentateuch (it is the orthodox interpretation of everything holy) just as Mark himself is considered to be the second (and second) after Moses. Yet you begin to get an idea. Notice also that Clement and Marqe (and Mark the heretic in Irenaeus, and Mark in the Letter to Theodore) all take a mystical interest in the number six). Beresit has six letters.

sotto voce · 02-27-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have published ALL the relevant references to Genesis 1:26 in Clement in another thread. It is stupid to develop an argument like you do. We can't start with what Clement SHOULD believe IF he were orthodox.

We can start with a good translation of Deuteronomy 13 and try to work out how the hereafter is implicated in it.

Quote:

We have to deal with what IS and Clement says over and over again that the first creation was according to the image and later with Jesus according to the likeness.

We have to take as much notice of Clement of Alexandria as we have to take note of Dinah of Djibouti or Bill of Birmingham. None whatsoever. People were taking note of Deuteronomy long before Clement. Knowledge of the proper interpretation of scriptures IMPROVES the further away we get from the original sources? Not as a rule. The basic hermeneutic rule is to interpret as the original hearers/readers interpreted them. Clement, no.

Quote:

Marqe (= Mark) in the Mimar Book Four

But this was written after Clement. So Clement invented.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 09:13 AM

Maybe that wasn't explicit enough. Here is some of what follows. First with respect to the material in Deuteronomy which we noted Clement and Marqe think leads to perfection:

Quote:

The great prophet Moses dwelt in it and possessed glory. He sustained himself from it and was magnified in its good. No one has dwelt in it as he has and no one will (like him) be supplied from it. O men, learn from him and walk after him, and hold fast to his
command and do not forget his statutes. Woe to those who lack it and turn from its light! His teaching is then forgotten and they have withdrawn from it. They do not draw near to it; they destroy themselves and God is too righteous for them. They call Him. but He does not answer.

Greatness belongs to God, who forgives sins and rolls them away in His mercy, so that they may repent. [ibid]

Perhaps the juxtaposition of BARA with QARA is meant to furnish the idea that we must call out for God as we follow him?

In any event it is only in the next chapter - the one that deals with the 'perfect work' (tamym po'olo) that we see the twofold perfection process brought forward. A small sample:

Quote:

At the beginning He mentioned Creation and also at the end He magnified man's FORM. He blessed the whole with the two words TAMIM PO'OLO (His work is perfect).

Greatness belongs to our Lord. He has made known in His wisdom that which He made manifest, for our Lord in His great power made everything a form, then created and fashioned and made creatures exceedingly grand. Everything was made by Him.

Everything is from Him. Everything was drawn into being by His command "Come"; it
was governed by His power, made strong by His good (favour) and magnified by His glory.

Exalted, good is he who draws near to Him and does not go far from Him, for He is near to all who seek Him and cares for all who love Him—a strong shield to those who believe in Him, for He is merciful and pitiful.

So He testified of Himself, "The Lord, a God merciful and gracious" (Ex. xxxiv. 6). [Mimar 4.2]

Note the twofold process - (a) for our Lord in His great power made everything a form, (b) then created and fashioned and made creatures exceedingly grand.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 09:15 AM

My best friend in the world Rory Boid has unmatched expertise in things Samaritan. He is open to an (early) second century dating for Marqe. The idea that the Samaritans took up Clement's invention and then adopted for themselves is ridiculous.

sotto voce · 02-27-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Maybe that wasn't explicit enough. Here is some of what follows. First with respect to the material in Deuteronomy which we noted Clement and Marqe think leads to perfection:

Quote:

The great prophet Moses dwelt in it and possessed glory. He sustained himself from it and was magnified in its good. No one has dwelt in it as he has and no one will (like him) be supplied from it. O men, learn from him and walk after him, and hold fast to his
command and do not forget his statutes. Woe to those who lack it and turn from its light! His teaching is then forgotten and they have withdrawn from it. They do not draw near to it; they destroy themselves and God is too righteous for them. They call Him. but He does not answer.

Greatness belongs to God, who forgives sins and rolls them away in His mercy, so that they may repent. [ibid]

Perhaps the juxtaposition of BARA with QARA is meant to furnish the idea that we must call out for God as we follow him?

In any event it is only in the next chapter - the one that deals with the 'perfect work' (tamym po'olo) that we see the twofold perfection process brought forward. A small sample:

Quote:

At the beginning He mentioned Creation and also at the end He magnified man's FORM. He blessed the whole with the two words TAMIM PO'OLO (His work is perfect).

Greatness belongs to our Lord. He has made known in His wisdom that which He made manifest, for our Lord in His great power made everything a form, then created and fashioned and made creatures exceedingly grand. Everything was made by Him.

Everything is from Him. Everything was drawn into being by His command "Come"; it
was governed by His power, made strong by His good (favour) and magnified by His glory.

Exalted, good is he who draws near to Him and does not go far from Him, for He is near to all who seek Him and cares for all who love Him—a strong shield to those who believe in Him, for He is merciful and pitiful.

So He testified of Himself, "The Lord, a God merciful and gracious" (Ex. xxxiv. 6). [Mimar 4.2]

Note the twofold process

Twofold, too late.

Where is the twofold process in the Tanakh, where it matters?

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 09:22 AM

Why are the opinions of the Jews superior to those of the Samaritans? Exegesis is what matters to Jews, exegesis is what matters to Samaritans.

sotto voce · 02-27-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why are the opinions of the Jews superior to those of the Samaritans? Exegesis is what matters to Jews, exegesis is what matters to Samaritans.

It's not a matter of tribe; it's a matter of catholicity, rather. One must source theology to origin; to when there were only united Israelites, not Samaritans. There is no biblical support for two stage creation of the nature of mankind, except in a way that is undesirable. After the Fall, Genesis states, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." So, humanity is already fully made in the image of God. It's just that humanity has used that characteristic differently from God. Clement was very heretical indeed.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 09:56 AM

In another section of the Mimar we see perhaps an explanation of the twofold perfection process that starts with BARA and ends with QARA. I must thank the people participating in this forum for I wouldn't have seen this if I hadn't engaged them. The answer Marqe seems to give has to do with divine blessings which he notes always precede the taking of the 'kingdom.'

The question that occupies Marqe is the question of the blessing and whether the blessing they made could have been heard by 600,000 Israelites. If you look carefully Marqe seems to apply these events to what will happen in the future with the coming of the messiah (= Ta'eb). He starts with the observation that Genesis begins with a Blessing and then is followed by a curse and notes the same at the time of Noah and throughout the Pentateuch and then continues:

Quote:

Therefore you know that at the time (or 'beginning') it takes place (= the messianic restoration) the Blessing will be pronounced before the Curse, that they may know the place with which God has crowned their kingdom. He informed them that they would be worthy of this great honour — which is incalculable!

They (the Israelites) slew their enemies by the power of God and crossed the Jordan as Jacob had done, empty-handed as he was as far as the world's goods are concerned, but rich in righteousness. See how he was honoured and how he praised God, when the angel met him after his great and glorious crossing. At his first crossing his staff was in his hand; at the second he crossed over a rich man. Thus He said, "For with only my staff I crossed (this) Jordan" (Gen. xxxii. 1 0; Targ.), and he gave thanks to God who had enriched him after his poverty. So God wanted his descendants to multiply thanksgiving for what He had given them.

Therefore it is our duty to know the inner meaning of this action, that we should join those who know the glory of God and give thanks. By this action Moses sought the day when they should cross the Jordan to do these two things which testify to you of what is heard from your mouths. If you do something that is pleasing, the Blessing which you uttered from your own mouths will come to pass for you. If you do something evil of this that you said in your own mouths, then the Curse will be operative on you, and from the Blessing you will be turned away. Do not forget this covenant and do not forsake the truth, that you may be at rest both here and there.

We want to know how they will pronounce the Blessing and six hundred thousand people hear Levi, the possessor of the Blessing, begin as was proper for him, for no man has precedence over him. If you desire knowledge of how he pronounced the Blessing, be silent and hear Levi begin to speak aloud, and God answering him with voice
that all the congregation might hear.

Thus it happened to Aaron when he entered the Sanctuary with the great prophet Moses. The voice came forth from among the Cherubim to Moses, "Say to Aaron and his sons, 'Thus you shall bless the people of Israel'"(Num. vi. 23 ; Targ.). He received the great name from the mouth of the Mighty One and went forth to the gate of the Tent of Meeting; he raised his voice with much reverence and blessed the congregation, while they all listened.

The Lord bless you (Num. vi. 24, et seq.) — he imbued them with reverence. He further said to them,
And keep you; when they were imbued with reverence they were worthy of guardianship.
The Lord make His person to shine upon you (Num. vi. 2 5 , et seq.); he who keeps is kept and the Divine One is present with him!
And be gracious to you. Observe the importance of this and keep hold of it.
When you receive the mercy of your God, you are always made great by Him.
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you (Num. vi. 26, et seq.), an incalculably great possession!
And give you peace, in this world and the next. Happy is he whose lot this is!

While Aaron was pronouncing this Blessing, his voice became loud till all the congregation could hear. So it was in the case of Levi when he pronounced the Blessing. God was aiding him, so that all the people could hear. [Mimar 3.4]

This is perhaps the last piece in the puzzle I was looking for to complete my next book. The juxtaposition of BARA and QARA is also present in the mystic gospel attested by Clement to have also been written by a man named Mark. Notice the quoted section fits perfectly within this framework:

Quote:

"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightaway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do, and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

The formula is present here too in a disguised form. Let's go back to Marqe. Levi and Aaron 'call out' (= QARA) to God and then a blessing is received by the Israelites. Notice that Marqe says that God comes into their presence flying by the group in his chariot (= cherubim) and the company receive the 'person' or likeness of God before crossing the Jordan. This is the same formula as in Secret Mark.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 10:08 AM

Notice also that Marqe immediately goes back to the narrative of Jacob's vision seeing yesh (= the glory) and being transformed. The idea here is that in the future the contemporary Israelites whom Marqe is addressing will 'see God' and receiving a blessing (and presumably receive baptism at one time cf. Dositheans):

Quote:

O good congregation whom God has made powerful and for whom He brought to pass what He swore to their fathers, this day your hand has been filled. All the glory with which you are uniquely endowed among all peoples has been made known. You are a people holy to the Lord your God (Deut. vii. 6; Targ.), more so than the fathers who went forth from Egypt gloriously, all of whom died in the desert; this place they did not see, but you have reached it with might. You slew my enemy who possessed your lands and there is not left to you a single enemy in it. You will be blessed like Noah who reached here; by deliverance in the world peace is made sure.

You will be exceedingly abundant in wealth and the world will be benefited by you with joy. Y o u will possess the land and will do in it what is pleasing to God. No wrath will befall you and you will be very great, like Abraham when he came here and was tested and had to bind Isaac his son; he placed him on the altar and sought to do what he was commanded. God knew the sincerity of his heart and opened the Garden and sent him deliverance. He heard the Blessing from the midst of heaven, more than all who had gone before — For I will surely bless you (Gen. xxii. 1 7 ).

You will possess it, till all the nations of the world come to you. And I will multiply your descendants (ibid; Targ.). Let this never depart from you. He has made you as numerous as the stars in the sky, because you are the holiest of peoples, and He has given to your descendants all these lands.

Give thanks to God who has thus supplied you, and every nation in the land will be blessed by your descendants. Hold fast to your trust in the Good One. This will be lasting for you.

These words were said subject to pleasing action, and you are in possession of what God has promised. Do actions (of such a kind) that your possession may last, and walk like Isaac when he saw his Lord and his blessing was great. You will have, like him, abundant
possession. He blessed him and he went to Beersheba.

The blessing of Jacob too, wherewith he was blessed in his dream — twelve words, all about prosperity. You will become great through the statement that the great prophet Moses made when he arose to sing at the sea accompanied by your fathers. Thou wilt bring them in, and plant them on thy own mountain, the place . . . for thy abode (Ex. xv. 1 7 ; Targ.), the statement by which your coming to this mountain will be established in faith, today and at all times — and you are . . . as the stars of heaven for multitude (Deut. i. 1 0 ; Targ.).

Take possession of this glory with strength. Let it be for you uplifting above all the peoples, for they are unclean and you are holy. They worship the stars of heaven and you worship the God of gods. May the Lord, the God of your fathers make you a thousand times as many as you are, (Deut. i. 1 1 ; Targ.) through the great significance of this statement both for today and for tomorrow, today for glory, tomorrow for perfection. And bless you (ibid.) as He promised you. Continue in the truth and let this be lasting for you. [ibid]

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02-27-2012, 08:49 AM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have published ALL the relevant references to Genesis 1:26 in Clement in another thread. It is stupid to develop an argument like you do. We can't start with what Clement SHOULD believe IF he were orthodox. We have to deal with what IS and Clement says over and over again that the first creation was according to the image and later with Jesus according to the likeness. Marqe (= Mark) in the Mimar Book Four speaks in terms of a creation according to BARA (= to make, create, form) at the beginning and QARA (= to call, proclaim etc.) in the end but it is an identical formulation in all other respects.

02-27-2012, 09:15 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My best friend in the world Rory Boid has unmatched expertise in things Samaritan. He is open to an (early) second century dating for Marqe. The idea that the Samaritans took up Clement's invention and then adopted for themselves is ridiculous.

02-27-2012, 09:22 AM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Why are the opinions of the Jews superior to those of the Samaritans? Exegesis is what matters to Jews, exegesis is what matters to Samaritans.

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