Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-04-2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

One can find many of the alleged parallels at http://www.saltshakers.com/lm/Herford.rtf

(Note this page contains several parallels that I think unlikely as well as those that I regard as genuine references to Jesus and Christianity.)

Thanks. That's is quite a comprehensive review.
I'll have a look at it in some depth a bit later but
of all these references, which do you prefer as
perhaps the stronger or strongest?

Jesus as "Ben Stada" aka "Ben Pandera" is common
here as it elsewhere.

Pete

mountainman · 10-04-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Pete:

The article you linked to does not mention the passage that I cited.

From the Forward to the Soncino edition of the Babylonian Talmud:

...[trimmed] ...

He exclaimed: 'Akiba thou hast reminded me.' I was once walking in the upper-market of Sepphoris when I came across one of the disciples of Jesus the Nazarene Jacob of Kefar-Sekaniah by name, who said to me: It is written in your Torah, Thou shalt not ....

Above is part of the text you cited No Robots.

Are you able to tell me the century that the speaker
claims to have walked across the upper-market
of Sepphoris and came across one of the disciples
of Jesus the Nazarene?

All I'd like you to do it to tell me the century in
which this exchange is supposed to have occurred,
and then the century in which the text was written.

Is this a reasonable request?

Quote:

A voluminous work like the Babylonian Gemara, passing through the hands of numberless copyists, could not have remained free from errors. Fifty years ago, Rabbinowicz collected variants to the current Text, and examined it in the light of manuscripts, especially of the Munich MS. which covers the whole Talmud and dates from the year 1334. Alas, that that is the only complete MS. of the Talmud in existence, due to the bigotry of the medieval popes, who often consigned whole cartloads of Talmud MSS. to the flames. After the invention of printing, stupid and over-zealous censors not only expunged the few passages that refer to the Founder of Christianity, but also many others which they in their ignorance looked upon as disguised attacks upon their religion. Only one edition of the Talmud has escaped defacement at the hands of the censors, having been printed in Holland.

Some commentary by Constantin Brunner.

No Robots · 10-04-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Are you able to tell me the century that the speaker claims to have walked across the upper-market of Sepphoris and came across one of the disciples of Jesus the Nazarene?

All I'd like you to do it to tell me the century in which this exchange is supposed to have occurred, and then the century in which the text was written.

From the Brunner text that I linked to:

Rabbi Eliezer b. Hyrcanus was one of the most distinguished Tannaim, the brother-in-law of the Patriarch Gamaliel II.; he was also called Eliezer the Great. And so this Rabbi Eliezer, who lived in the first Christian century, speaks of an opinion of Christ which had come down to him from a disciple of Christ (and some identified this Jacob with Christ's brother). This seems to me to be an important fact, particularly as it touches Christ's historical reality, and I find it astonishing that the critics have thus far paid no attention to it. Moreover, it is more than probable that important, really important sayings of Christ (not under his own name, of course) are contained in Talmud and Midrash. There are plenty of sayings and parables of great clarity, beauty and dignity which could have come from his mouth.

and:

We cannot be sure when the passages which definitely refer to Jesus Christ originated. Some of them can be shown to originate in the 4th century. Thus the Talmud does not yield a single proof of the real historical existence of Christ, in which the Jews believed as naturally as Christians did. In itself this belief on the part of the Jews—least of all in the later period, when they were living among Christians—would prove nothing.

mountainman · 10-04-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I think that you'll find that these references
have associated with them a certain degree
of ambiguity. That is, there are many
commentators who dispute that these
references are sound.

Let's dig them out and have a look at them?
I'm game. My bet is that we will be left
with a list of "urban myths".

Best wishes,

Pete

One can find many of the alleged parallels at http://www.saltshakers.com/lm/Herford.rtf

(Note this page contains several parallels that I think unlikely as well as those that I regard as genuine references to Jesus and Christianity.)

Andrew Criddle

Here is my analysis of this document so far.
I will not bother with a summary at this stage
simply a categoriesed assessment of the source
material presented by its author with respect to
the subject of this thread.

The document discusses 31 references.
IMO they are categorisable as follows:

ANALYSIS of the 31 References

1) The “Ben Stada aka Ben Pandira” --- 4 out of 31 References

BIRTH AND PARENTAGE OF JESUS - Shabbath 104b
JESUS A MAGICIAN - Tosefta Shabbat xi 15-
THE TRAIL OF JESUS - Tosefta Sanhedrin X 11
BEN DAMAH AND JACOB OF KFAR SAMA - Tosefta Hullin ii 22,23

2) The “Balaam” ” --- 4 out of 31 References

THE ANCESTRY OF THE MOTHER OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 106a
JESUS AND BALAAM - Mishnah Sanhedrin 10.2
THE AGE OF BALAAM (JESUS) - Sanhedrin 106b
BALAAM (JESUS) AND THE NAME OF GOD - Sanhedrin 106a

3) The “Yeshu the Nazarene” ” --- 4 out of 31 References

JESUS AND HIS TEACHER - Sanhedrin 107b
THE EXECUTION OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE NAZARENE DAY - Avodah Zerah 6a (ib. 7b); Taanith 27b

4) The “Wishful Thinking ” --- 9 out of 31 References

MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS - Hagigah 4b.
JESUS ALLEGED TO BE A ‘MAMZER’ - Mishnah Yevamot 4.13 [Yevamot 49b, same words]
COVERT REFERENCE TO JESUS - Yoma 66b
THE CLAIM OF JESUS DENIED - Jerusalem Taanith 65b
GRANDSON OF R. YEHOSHUA BEN LEVI AND A CHRISTIAN DOCTOR - Jerusalem Shabbat 14d
IMMA SHALOM AND A CHRISTIAN JUDGE - Shabbat 116a,b
THE UNITY OF GOD. “HE WHO WILL ERR, LET HIM ERR.” - Bereshith Rabba 8,
THE UNITY OF GOD. GOD HAS NO SON - Jerusalem Shabbat 8d
THE UNITY OF GOD. THE SON OF THE HARLOT - Pesikta Rabbati 21

5) The “Heretics” aka “Minn” ” --- 10 out of 31 References

R. ABAHU AND JACOB THE HERETIC (“MIN”) - Avodah Zarah 28a
THE FORMULA AGAINST THE HERETICS (“MINIM”) - Jerusalem Berakoth 9c
R. ELIEZER ARRESTED FOR MINUTH - Tosefta Hullin ii 24
HOW THE BOOKS OF THE MINIM ARE TO BE TREATED - Tosefta Shabbat 18.5
BOOKS OF THE LAW WRITTEN BY MINIM - Gittin 4b
THE BOOKS OF THE MINIM DO NOT DEFILE THE HANDS - Tofesta Yadim 2.1
THE BOOKS OF THE BE ABIDAN (AND BE NITZRAPHI) - Shabbat 116a
SIGNS OF MINUTH; LITURGICAL VARIATIONS - Mishnah Megillah 4.8,9
SIGNS OF MINUTH: LITURGICAL OMISSIONS - Berakoth 9c
THE MINIM OF CAPERNAUM AND R. HANANYAH, NEPHEW R. YEHOSHUA - Qoh. Rabba 1.8

So much for a quick review of what the Talmud does
or does not say about Jesus, the Gospels and/or the
Christian religion.

Any comments from the peanut gallery?

mountainman · 10-04-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

From the Brunner text that I linked to:

Rabbi Eliezer b. Hyrcanus was one of the most distinguished Tannaim, the brother-in-law of the Patriarch Gamaliel II.; he was also called Eliezer the Great. And so this Rabbi Eliezer, who lived in the first Christian century, speaks of an opinion of Christ which had come down to him from a disciple of Christ (and some identified this Jacob with Christ's brother). This seems to me to be an important fact, particularly as it touches Christ's historical reality, and I find it astonishing that the critics have thus far paid no attention to it.

See the above post. The presence of "Jesus" in the
Talmud seems to be using a holy trinity of nicknames.
How many profiles did Jesus have?

It appears that you (and Brunner) are using the
referenced to “Yeshu the Nazarene” ”

JESUS AND HIS TEACHER - Sanhedrin 107b
THE EXECUTION OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE NAZARENE DAY - Avodah Zerah 6a (ib. 7b); Taanith 27b

(See above).

While that might be a good thing, there are two separate
sets of Jesus-Like-Profiles that need to be sorted out,
those of Ben Pandira and those of "Balaam".

What an interesting mess!
Perhaps there is a shortcut though it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brunner

We cannot be sure when the passages which definitely refer to Jesus Christ originated. Some of them can be shown to originate in the 4th century.

That's my claim as well.
How cute is that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brunner

Thus the Talmud does not yield a single proof of the real historical existence of Christ, in which the Jews believed as naturally as Christians did. In itself this belief on the part of the Jews—least of all in the later period, when they were living among Christians—would prove nothing.

Yes, even if the texts say something, it appears they
were written c.200 and extended in the fourth century.

All of this a bit late for anything like unambiguous
support to the existence of the "mainstream Eusebian HJ".

andrewcriddle · 10-06-2007, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks. That's is quite a comprehensive review.
I'll have a look at it in some depth a bit later but
of all these references, which do you prefer as
perhaps the stronger or strongest?

Jesus as "Ben Stada" aka "Ben Pandera" is common
here as it elsewhere.

Pete

IMO the strongest references are the ones in Tosefta Hullin

Quote:

Tosefta Hullin ii 22,23--The case of Rabbi Elazar ben Dama, whom a serpent bit. There came in Jacob, a man of Kfar Sama, to cure him in the name of Yeshu ben Pandira, but R. Ishmael did not allow it. He said, “You are not permitted, Ben Dama”. He said, “I will bring you a proof that he may heal me.” But he had not finished bringing a proof when he died. R. Ishmael said, “Happy are you, Ben Dama, for you have departed in peace, and have not broken through the ordinances of the sages; for upon everyone who breaks through the fence of the sages, punishment comes at last, as it is written (Eccl. 10:8), “Whoever breaks a fence a serpent shall bite him.”

Quote:

Tosefta Hullin ii 24--The case of Rabbi Eleizer, who was arrested for Minuth, and they brought him to the tribunal for judgement. The governor said to him, “Does an old man like you occupy himself with such things?” He said to him, “Faithful is the judge concerning me.” The governor supposed that he only said this of him, but he was not thinking of any but his Father who is in heaven. He [the governor] said to him, “Since I am trusted concerning you, thus also will I be. I said, perhaps societies err concerning these things. Dimissus. Behold, you are released.” And when he had been released from the tribunal, he was troubled because he had been arrested for Minuth. His disciples came to console him, but he would not take comfort. R. Akiva came in and said to him, shall I say to you why you are perhaps grieving? He said to him, “Say on.” He said to him, “Perhaps one of the Minim has said to you a word of Minuth and it has pleased you.” He said, “By heaven, you have reminded me! Once I was walking along the street of Sephoris, and I met Jacob of Kfar Sichnin, and he said to me a word of Minuth in the name of Yeshu ben Pantiri, and it pleased me. And I was arrested for words of Minuth because I transgressed the words of Torah (Prov. 5:8), ‘Keep your way far from her, and come not near the door of her house (7:26), for she has cast down many wounded.’” And R. Eliezer used to say, “Ever let a man flee from what is hateful, and from that which resembles what is hateful.”

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 10-07-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IMO the strongest references are the ones in Tosefta Hullin

Quote:

Tosefta Hullin ii 24--The case of Rabbi Eleizer, who was arrested for Minuth, and they brought him to the tribunal for judgement. The governor said to him, “Does an old man like you occupy himself with such things?” He said to him, “Faithful is the judge concerning me.” The governor supposed that he only said this of him, but he was not thinking of any but his Father who is in heaven. He [the governor] said to him, “Since I am trusted concerning you, thus also will I be. I said, perhaps societies err concerning these things. Dimissus. Behold, you are released.” And when he had been released from the tribunal, he was troubled because he had been arrested for Minuth. His disciples came to console him, but he would not take comfort. R. Akiva came in and said to him, shall I say to you why you are perhaps grieving? He said to him, “Say on.” He said to him, “Perhaps one of the Minim has said to you a word of Minuth and it has pleased you.” He said, “By heaven, you have reminded me! Once I was walking along the street of Sephoris, and I met Jacob of Kfar Sichnin, and he said to me a word of Minuth in the name of Yeshu ben Pantiri, and it pleased me. And I was arrested for words of Minuth because I transgressed the words of Torah (Prov. 5:8), ‘Keep your way far from her, and come not near the door of her house (7:26), for she has cast down many wounded.’” And R. Eliezer used to say, “Ever let a man flee from what is hateful, and from that which resembles what is hateful.”

Andrew Criddle

Thanks Andrew.

If we look at this in the context of all "possible"
references throughout the Talmud corpus, we
have the following:

You have selected the The “Ben Stada aka Ben Pandira”
identity from the following ...

ANALYSIS of the all (31 at present) References

1) The “Ben Stada aka Ben Pandira” --- 4 out of 31 References

BIRTH AND PARENTAGE OF JESUS - Shabbath 104b
JESUS A MAGICIAN - Tosefta Shabbat xi 15-
THE TRAIL OF JESUS - Tosefta Sanhedrin X 11
BEN DAMAH AND JACOB OF KFAR SAMA - Tosefta Hullin ii 22,23,24 <<<====

2) The “Balaam” ” --- 4 out of 31 References

THE ANCESTRY OF THE MOTHER OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 106a
JESUS AND BALAAM - Mishnah Sanhedrin 10.2
THE AGE OF BALAAM (JESUS) - Sanhedrin 106b
BALAAM (JESUS) AND THE NAME OF GOD - Sanhedrin 106a

3) The “Yeshu the Nazarene” ” --- 4 out of 31 References

JESUS AND HIS TEACHER - Sanhedrin 107b
THE EXECUTION OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE NAZARENE DAY - Avodah Zerah 6a (ib. 7b); Taanith 27b

4) The “Wishful Thinking ” --- 9 out of 31 References

MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS - Hagigah 4b.
JESUS ALLEGED TO BE A ‘MAMZER’ - Mishnah Yevamot 4.13 [Yevamot 49b, same words]
COVERT REFERENCE TO JESUS - Yoma 66b
THE CLAIM OF JESUS DENIED - Jerusalem Taanith 65b
GRANDSON OF R. YEHOSHUA BEN LEVI AND A CHRISTIAN DOCTOR - Jerusalem Shabbat 14d
IMMA SHALOM AND A CHRISTIAN JUDGE - Shabbat 116a,b
THE UNITY OF GOD. “HE WHO WILL ERR, LET HIM ERR.” - Bereshith Rabba 8,
THE UNITY OF GOD. GOD HAS NO SON - Jerusalem Shabbat 8d
THE UNITY OF GOD. THE SON OF THE HARLOT - Pesikta Rabbati 21

5) The “Heretics” aka “Minn” ” --- 10 out of 31 References

R. ABAHU AND JACOB THE HERETIC (“MIN”) - Avodah Zarah 28a
THE FORMULA AGAINST THE HERETICS (“MINIM”) - Jerusalem Berakoth 9c
R. ELIEZER ARRESTED FOR MINUTH - Tosefta Hullin ii 24
HOW THE BOOKS OF THE MINIM ARE TO BE TREATED - Tosefta Shabbat 18.5
BOOKS OF THE LAW WRITTEN BY MINIM - Gittin 4b
THE BOOKS OF THE MINIM DO NOT DEFILE THE HANDS - Tofesta Yadim 2.1
THE BOOKS OF THE BE ABIDAN (AND BE NITZRAPHI) - Shabbat 116a
SIGNS OF MINUTH; LITURGICAL VARIATIONS - Mishnah Megillah 4.8,9
SIGNS OF MINUTH: LITURGICAL OMISSIONS - Berakoth 9c
THE MINIM OF CAPERNAUM AND R. HANANYAH, NEPHEW R. YEHOSHUA - Qoh. Rabba 1.8

Is this how you picture things?

No Robot's (Brunner?) selects another set
THE EXECUTION OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS - Sanhedrin 43a
these are from the "YESHU identity.

There is another "Balaam" identity also put
forward, to make a trinity of selections
available.

Also, is this reference BEN DAMAH AND JACOB OF KFAR SAMA -
Tosefta Hullin ii 22,23,24 <<<====
from the fourth century? What is the
chronology / philology of your selection?

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 10-08-2007, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks Andrew.

If we look at this in the context of all "possible"
references throughout the Talmud corpus, we
have the following:

You have selected the The “Ben Stada aka Ben Pandira”
identity from the following ...

The Tosefta Hullin passages do not mention Ben Stada.
IMO the identification of Ben Stada with Jesus is late and unhistorical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Also, is this reference BEN DAMAH AND JACOB OF KFAR SAMA -
Tosefta Hullin ii 22,23,24 <<<====
from the fourth century? What is the
chronology / philology of your selection?

Best wishes,

Pete

Rabbi Ishmael (from the first story) and Rabbi Eliezer (from the second) were both active in the early part of the 2nd century CE (Rabbi Eliezer also being active in the very late 1st century and Rabbi Ishmael probably in the mid 2nd century.

Hence the accounts purport to be of events happening between c 80 and 150 CE and probably between 100 and 130 CE.

The Tosefta in which they occur was compiled c 300 CE on the basis of older traditions.

Andrew Criddle

Apikorus · 10-08-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

So Peter Schaefer is claiming Jesus was the Roman soldier Panthera. This has been done before by others, and at the same time, this has been refuted by others on a number of grounds.

Schaefer claims no such thing. Why don't you read his book instead of judging it based on amazon.com reviews? It is the most compelling and coherent treatment of the Jesus materials in the early rabbinic texts yet written, IMHO.

Basically, Schaefer says that the rabbinic authors were familiar with Christian claims and constructed a counternarrative in response. The terseness of the rabbinic writings and the allusive nature of this counternarrative render it extremely subtle for modern readers. It takes an expert like Schaefer to fully unpack the rabbinic writings here. Schaefer also critiques previous works on the subject, such as R. T. Hereford and J. Meier.

mountainman · 10-08-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

So Peter Schaefer is claiming Jesus was the Roman soldier Panthera. This has been done before by others, and at the same time, this has been refuted by others on a number of grounds.

Schaefer claims no such thing. Why don't you read his book instead of judging it based on amazon.com reviews? It is the most compelling and coherent treatment of the Jesus materials in the early rabbinic texts yet written, IMHO.

Thanks for your opinion, which I appreciate Apikorus, but give
me a break about reading every book on the Amazon billboard.
I did mention that I had not reserached this area, and that I
was seeking short-cuts in reviewing it.

Quote:

Basically, Schaefer says that the rabbinic authors were familiar with Christian claims and constructed a counternarrative in response. The terseness of the rabbinic writings and the allusive nature of this counternarrative render it extremely subtle for modern readers. It takes an expert like Schaefer to fully unpack the rabbinic writings here. Schaefer also critiques previous works on the subject, such as R. T. Hereford and J. Meier.

I will admit that I immediately agree about the allusive and
subtle nature of this "hypothetical Christian counternarrative".

There is nothing obvious about it whatsoever.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

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