Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 03-31-2010, 10:29 AM

Toto,

The question may not be so much "Was the last supper a Seder? " but "Was the last supper a passover meal, a Seder, or a regular supper?" From what I understand (and I shoot from the hip here) there is a difference between a passover meal (in which you take your lamb to the temple to be ritually slaughtered and your portion of the meat returned to you, which you take home and eat with your immediate family only, along with the bitter herbs and unleavened bread), and a Seder (which is a commemorative meal that is NOT the same as a Passover meal, with similar ritual involving a roasted lamb that is NOT slaughtered in the temple - which was often shared with neighbors - and herbs and unleavened bread, for those who cannot afford to buy a lamb for their own family alone to be slaughtered in the temple, or who live outside of Judea), and a regular supper.

The question, I guess, is whether the bread that was "dipped in the sop" was unleavened, and whether the "sop" was the bitter herbs or just plain dipping sauce (all regular meals included some sort of leavened bread that was dipped in a flavoring sauce of some kind - fish sauce was very popular in a later period, plus vegetables and occasionally even stewed meat - the "pot liquor" would serve as the "sop").

I do not know a lot about the Greek terms used for the bread or bitter herbs in the Lxx or Josephus, or the normal Greek terms for leavened bread and dipping sauces, to be able to compare them to the terms used in the NT. That is an Andrew Criddle type inquiry.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

BAR article by Jonathan Klawans says no, it wasn't.

This is actually an informative article, even if you might disgree with some of the author's assumptions.

Quote:

... several Judaic studies scholars—Jacob Neusner is a leading example—very much doubt that rabbinic texts can be used in historical reconstructions of the time of Jesus. But rabbinic literature is our main source of information about what Jews might have done during their Seder meal in ancient times. For reasons that are not entirely clear, other ancient Jewish sources, such as Josephus and Philo, focus on what Jews did in the Temple when the Passover sacrifice was offered, rather than on what they did afterward, when they actually ate the sacrifice. Again, if we cannot know how Jews celebrated Passover at the time of Jesus, then we have to plead ignorance, and we would therefore be unable to answer our question.

There is something to be said for these skeptical positions, but I am not such a skeptic. I want to operate here under the opposite assumptions: that the Gospels can tell us about the historical Jesus,³ and that rabbinic sources can be used—with caution—to reconstruct what Jews at the time of Jesus might have believed and practiced.⁴ Even so, I do not think the Last Supper was a Passover Seder.

He makes the interesting point that if the last supper were in fact a seder, the trial and execution of Jesus would have happened during the Passover week, and the gospels would surely have used that fact against the Jewish authorities.

spamandham · 03-31-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

As somebody trained as a scientist, I am shocked by what I see when I read articles by New Testament scholars.

...which is why I enjoy the constant reminders that history majors graduate with a BA rather than a BS. It really is an art (sadly) rather than a science. I see no reason it *couldn't* be a science.

arnoldo · 04-01-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Toto,

The question may not be so much "Was the last supper a Seder? " but "Was the last supper a passover meal, a Seder, or a regular supper?" From what I understand (and I shoot from the hip here) there is a difference between a passover meal (in which you take your lamb to the temple to be ritually slaughtered and your portion of the meat returned to you, which you take home and eat with your immediate family only, along with the bitter herbs and unleavened bread), and a Seder (which is a commemorative meal that is NOT the same as a Passover meal, with similar ritual involving a roasted lamb that is NOT slaughtered in the temple - which was often shared with neighbors - and herbs and unleavened bread, for those who cannot afford to buy a lamb for their own family alone to be slaughtered in the temple, or who live outside of Judea), and a regular supper.

Good question. IIRC, only those people who were in Jerusalem and sacrificed the lamb at the temple were able to hold a true passover. Those outside Jerusalem participated in a seder and had a symbolic representation of the lamb at the seder. Considering the crowded conditions in Jersualem of those wanting to participate in the passover it would be remarkable if it could be accomplshed on the first half of Nissan 14 (which begins at 6 PM and ends the next "day" at 6 PM. Perhaps the jews had the opportunity to have passover the first half of passover and then the next half which would still be Nissan 14. Also between the evening there also was another lamb which was sacrificed for the nation of Israel. The following source seems to indicate this is a possibility.

Quote:

The biblical regulations for the observance of the festival require that all leavening be disposed of before the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.[8] An unblemished lamb or goat is to be set apart on Nisan 10,[9] and slaughtered on Nisan 14 "between the two evenings",[10] a phrase which is, however, not defined. It is then to be eaten "that night", Nisan 15,[11] roasted, without the removal of its internal organs[12] with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.[11] Nothing of the sacrifice on which the sun rises may be eaten, but must be burned.[13] The sacrifices may only be performed in Jerusalem.[14

post 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

The question, I guess, is whether the bread that was "dipped in the sop" was unleavened, and whether the "sop" was the bitter herbs or just plain dipping sauce (all regular meals included some sort of leavened bread that was dipped in a flavoring sauce of some kind - fish sauce was very popular in a later period, plus vegetables and occasionally even stewed meat - the "pot liquor" would serve as the "sop").

The following provides some info on your question.

Quote:

Karpas (this word means "parsley, green herbs").
This refers to the place in the Seder when the celebrants dip a green vegetable in salt water and eat it (John [Yochanan] 13:26-27). The oldest will sit on the left side of the table and will dip the sop. From this, we can conclude that Judas was the oldest disciple. The youngest will sit on the right side of the table. Benjamin (Benyamin) was the youngest of Jacob's (Ya'akov's) sons. Benjamin means "son of my right hand" in Hebrew

http://www.hebroots.org/sevenfestivals_chap3.htm

Sheshbazzar · 04-03-2010, 03:05 AM

The Gospels are the propaganda documents of a dissident proto-'christian' Jewish messianic sect. As such they reflect a strong bias against many of the commonly accepted 'interpretations', teachings, and 'traditions' of the Jewish Temple Priesthood.
The apparent conflict between known 'Jewish' Passover practices, and with how they are related to those details that are presented within the Gospels lies within the fact that these Messianic dissidents interpreted the injunctions of Torah somewhat differently, and followed a different 'calendar' system than the one taught by the the Temple Priesthood, and the official religion of Judaism.

With respect to the Passover, these dissidents held that the the original and true Passover observance took place on the night of the 14th of Abib, and that the "midnight" referred to in Ex 11 & 12 was the night of the 14th day of that month and year, with the 15th of Abib being the (night &) day that the Israelites actually departed from Rameses to Succoth.
This in contrast to "the JEWS 'Passover" version of events, which conflated the passover night of the 14th with the High Sabbath of the 15th of Nisan (note the gentile 'month' designation which had also supplanted the original "Observe the month of 'Abib'" (Ex 13:4, 23:15, 34:18, & Deut 16:1)
As these Messianic dissidents, and the Temple Priesthoods 'calendars' operated on quite different interpretations, principals, and cycles, there was a waiting and an anticipation for that opportune time when both 'calendars' would coincide and be in an agreement as to the "first day of the first month".
Then the Messianic dissidents located their passover seder (the infamous 'Last Supper') "between the evenings", the two evenings that marked out the day of the 14th of Abib. (Their messiah alone 'keeps' the passover 'vigil' while others, even His own disciples 'slept')
Thus their Messiah was both able to eat the passover with them on that night, at the proper time, and on the following afternoon (still "between the evenings" of the 14th of Abib) become the true sacrificial Passover Lamb, at the time of the Jews artificial "between the evenings" late afternoon of the 14th passover sacrifice.

So here is the contrast, to the Messianic dissidents who composed the NTs propaganda documents, the "midnight" written of in Exodus 11 & 12 where death visited the first-born of the Egyptians, and 'passed over' the Israelites and their houses, occurred in the middle of the night of the 14th day of the month of Abib, or approximately 319 hours into that month and year, whereas by the conflated 'traditional' Jewish Temple Priesthood accounting, that "midnight" would be on the 15th day of that month and year, or approximately 343 hours into that month and year.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-03-2010, 03:05 AM	#14
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The Gospels are the propaganda documents of a dissident proto-'christian' Jewish messianic sect. As such they reflect a strong bias against many of the commonly accepted 'interpretations', teachings, and 'traditions' of the Jewish Temple Priesthood. The apparent conflict between known 'Jewish' Passover practices, and with how they are related to those details that are presented within the Gospels lies within the fact that these Messianic dissidents interpreted the injunctions of Torah somewhat differently, and followed a different 'calendar' system than the one taught by the the Temple Priesthood, and the official religion of Judaism. With respect to the Passover, these dissidents held that the the original and true Passover observance took place on the night of the 14th of Abib, and that the "midnight" referred to in Ex 11 & 12 was the night of the 14th day of that month and year, with the 15th of Abib being the (night &) day that the Israelites actually departed from Rameses to Succoth. This in contrast to "the JEWS 'Passover" version of events, which conflated the passover night of the 14th with the High Sabbath of the 15th of Nisan (note the gentile 'month' designation which had also supplanted the original "Observe the month of 'Abib'" (Ex 13:4, 23:15, 34:18, & Deut 16:1) As these Messianic dissidents, and the Temple Priesthoods 'calendars' operated on quite different interpretations, principals, and cycles, there was a waiting and an anticipation for that opportune time when both 'calendars' would coincide and be in an agreement as to the "first day of the first month". Then the Messianic dissidents located their passover seder (the infamous 'Last Supper') "between the evenings", the two evenings that marked out the day of the 14th of Abib. (Their messiah alone 'keeps' the passover 'vigil' while others, even His own disciples 'slept') Thus their Messiah was both able to eat the passover with them on that night, at the proper time, and on the following afternoon (still "between the evenings" of the 14th of Abib) become the true sacrificial Passover Lamb, at the time of the Jews artificial "between the evenings" late afternoon of the 14th passover sacrifice. So here is the contrast, to the Messianic dissidents who composed the NTs propaganda documents, the "midnight" written of in Exodus 11 & 12 where death visited the first-born of the Egyptians, and 'passed over' the Israelites and their houses, occurred in the middle of the night of the 14th day of the month of Abib, or approximately 319 hours into that month and year, whereas by the conflated 'traditional' Jewish Temple Priesthood accounting, that "midnight" would be on the 15th day of that month and year, or approximately 343 hours into that month and year.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.