Onias

True, most 'believe' he existed and never seem to doubt the fragile basis for that belief. But Paul is conspicuously absent from non-Xian historical accounts. Paul speaks of all the people he met. . . Herod, Nero, etc but none of them mention Paul. It seems Paul is kinda like Forrest Gump!

Sheshbazzar

Consider. What can we glean from 'Paul's' writings that is likely to be authentic.
And what would have been very unlikely to have been produced or interpolated by the latter Jew hating Roman controlled gentile Church?
First up I'll offer up these verses;
Paul uses the present tense. He is truely a male JEW from Tarsus.

His conversion to believing in the Jewish Messiah did not ever stop him from being a JEW.
Paul did not ever become a non-Jew. Nor did he ever stop practicing the 'Jewish religion'.

Paul was a male JEW until the day he died;
he emphasizes the fact.
(A FACT of his birth that no change in religious views could ever change.)

(A FACT of his birth that no change in religious views could ever change.)

(A FACT of his birth that no change in religious views could ever change.)

(A FACT of his birth that no change in religious views could ever change.)

Still a Pharisee in respect to the Law. That means that he was still 'particular' and strict in his reading, his interpretation, and his application of Jewish Law, as far as Jews were concerned, Including himself, being as he was a Hebrew Jewish Jew;

"concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless" (Phl 3:6)

"he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the Temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all." (Acts 25:8)

"I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers". (Acts 28:17)

Yes it has. But should it have been? Who gets to decide, and to dictate what is 'Jewish religion'?
And what 'Jewish religion' consists of?
There have always been differences of opinion even among the most devout of JEWS.
But always a JEW is a JEW from the day of his birth, and regardless what he believes or what he does he remains a JEW till the day of his death.

Either you accept this Paul's testimony regarding himself, or you make Paul of Tarsus to be a liar.
And if you should deem this Paul to be a liar in testifying of his origins, you have nothing at all left that you can claim about any knowledge of Paul.


Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee was NOT a 'Christian'.
Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee did NOT become a 'Christian'.
Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee never once calls himself a 'Christian'.
Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee never once ever calls anyone else a 'Christian'.

There is no such word as 'Christianity' to be found anywhere in any text of the Bible.

Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee did not preach any religion called 'Christianity'.

There is no evidence that Paul the Hebrew Jewish Pharisee ever even heard of the word 'Christianity'.

'Christianity' is the invented bloodthirsty religion that The Whore of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church deceives the whole world with. (Rev 17:5-6, 18 Rome)

Onias

As per Robert Eisenman, the character of 'Paul' may have been derived from the person called "Saulus' by Josephus. Otherwise, there is no historical record of Paul from non-Xian historians. If "Paul' was an historical person, he was likely an Idumean rather than a real Jew. See the article "Paul as Herodian" by Robert Eisenman. I am divided on this issue.

Onias

Here is the link for the "Paul as Herodian" article:

http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/eisenman.html

Sheshbazzar

One could imagine a lot of things. But that is not at all dealing with the plain statements of the texts.

There is nothing at all known about this Paul other than the that is information provided in these texts.
Anything else is pure speculation totally lacking in any evidence at all.

And why bother with empty speculations when most cannot even see and deal with the textual information that is right in front of their face.

Onias

There is no factual information in these texts. Actually, there is nothing really known about Paul because the texts written in his name are anonymous. . . they are just folklore and not to be taken seriously. . . except to those who believe them by faith alone. And that is why 'faith' is so important to Xians since facts are so far and few between.

Sheshbazzar

When a person signs their name, identifies their country and city, and present a brief biography of themselves they are not writing anonymously.
While it is likely, virtually certain, that there were forgeries that were produced under the name Paul, that does not make all writings by Paul either forgeries or anonymous.

There have been tens of thousands of people in this world who have left behind written records of things they saw, did, and experienced, yet are individuals that not mentioned by anyone else, and cannot be located in any public records, that fact does not make them anonymous, and is no basis on which to make any valid claim that they their letters were forgeries, or that these persons are anonymous, or must not have existed.
Again you are assuming and asserting something that cannot be proven.

We have no way of knowing for certain that a man named Paul was never let down a city wall in a basket to escape arrest. What is so improbable about that? That kind of stuff still happens in various cities all over the world.

Or 'as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country; And sounded, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms.
then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.'

Because a late seasonal wind called Euroclydon is reported in this source, and the ship is caught in that storm, there cannot have been any such wind known as the Euroclydon? or any ship or survivors?

How can you be certain that this is not an actual first hand account from a person that was aboard?
So the preacher preached. And what preacher doesn't preach when the waters get rough?
Is the fact that the sailors simply survive in this narrative evidence that it cannot be factual information?

The bottom of Lake Michigan is littered with the sunken hulks of hundreds of vessels, many are unidentified, and unidentifiable, sometimes human remains are found. We do not know who they are, they're not on any records
do we have to assume they never existed?
We have early accounts of battles where thousands of men died in a day, but there is not a name left or a sign of their existence other than the ancient report, should we assume that the report is false or forged and the soldiers never existed because the reporter who survived may have also mentioned that he was spared by his national deity?

Onias

If I were to write fantastic letters or tales and then sign a name to them, that does not establish my identity or the truth of what I had written. The extraordinary claims of the authors of the Acts and Pauline epistles cannot be accepted at face value. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Paul's so-called letters and varying descriptions of him in the Acts of the Apostles cannot be distinguished from the genre of "historical fiction", novels set against an historical setting.

For a full examination of these issues, forum readers should see:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/saul-paul.htm

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html

Sheshbazzar

Nice how you only give attention to only what you wish.

You assert "There is no factual information in these texts."
I respond with the texts report on the Euroclydon. Do you address it at all?
No you do not, you just totally blow off avoid the FACT that this text reports the fact of the existence and danger of this very real mariners hazard.
Any ancient traveler having read this text, and contemplating undertaking a similar voyage at that time of the year, would have been forewarned of the dangers of such an undertaking.
It is both factual and useful information whether you are willing to admit to it or not.

Is there any other well known and widely distributed ancient text providing this important seafarers information? Anywhere?
I have not been able to locate any such. Have you? Please provide us with your well known references.

Don't dodge addressing these questions, it is dishonest.


Did you ever even consider the possibility that portions of these ancient writings may have been simple and straightforward accounts of the real events in peoples actual lives, that were latter adopted, embellished, and added onto by latter editors?
No obviously not. <edited>

Onias

None of Paul's claims can be independently verified nor can his identity be established. None of Paul's so-called letters were found in the churches he had addressed them to, nor is there any secular record these churches even existed. Paul's tales are mere fables.