Freethought & Rationalism Archive

kcdad · 05-09-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Please explain...

in your back yard you find a pot that carbon dates to 5000 BCE... ok... what do you know about it?

And you find a piece of paper that was a forgery carbon dated to the 4th century and you don't know that it was a forgery.

Well, I would have a 7000 year old pot and you would have a 1600 year old piece of toilet paper.

You know what?

If you found the "TF" in your backyard, you would have found a piece of toilet paper.

:shrug:

Is there someone around who can explain this?

Toto · 05-09-2009, 03:49 PM

Back to Elior: From the sun to the moon

Quote:

In her recently published (Hebrew) book, Memory and Oblivion - The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, she offers a bold and coherent narrative to explain events about which scholars have long held contrary views.

The short reason for the canon/Apocrypha divide, she suggests, was a dispute over the calendar. The more profound explanation involves a power struggle between the old priestly order that believed its rulings to be divinely inspired and an emerging class of rabbis espousing a different narrative, one which gave human reason and laws a role in shaping the religion. Elior demonstrates how mystic notions like cosmic calendars and heavenly chariots were part of a power struggle whose outcome would affect how Judaism is practiced to the present day.

Susan2 · 05-09-2009, 04:47 PM

I have been doing some research myself, and it ain’t just lukee (Christianity) who’s got some splainen to do.

If it is cancer that Ms. Elior is looking for, perhaps she can begin here: A just man?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...0ben%20Shetach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_ben_Shetach

From the link that you have provided I smell apologetics, excuses, excuses.............pass the buck?

Quote:

But what of the works excluded from the canon? Many were of comparable literary and religious quality to those chosen, says Elior, a professor of Jewish philosophy and Jewish mystical thought. "To many of the Jews of the first millennium BCE, all the texts had been equally holy," she says. "The [excluded] Book of Enoch or Book of Jubilees were certainly not considered less sacred than the [canonical] Book of Judges or Esther or Daniel."
1.
Yet the excluded texts - close to a dozen major works - were not just abandoned but excised as if they were a malignant growth. "Whoever reads them," declared Rabbi Akiva, one of the foremost sages involved in the process, "will have no place in the world to come."
1. Left to die, some of the expelled texts were rescued and adopted by another religion. Newborn Christianity, which regarded itself as the successor of Judaism, incorporated these texts into its own corpus of holy works along with the Old Testament, as the Hebrew Bible came to be called.

maryhelena · 05-10-2009, 09:20 AM

For the sake of argument, lets assume that Rachel Elior is right regarding the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls being from the Zadokite priesthood. The ‘ball’ is therefore back in the scholarly camp that wants to maintain the connection between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes. This connection being particularly vital for the historical Jesus camp, a camp that needs Josephus to be squeaky clean on matters of historical facts....i.e. a camp that would not like to have to face a Josephus interested in prophetic or number symbolism....

Rachel Elior says Josephus ‘invented’ the Essenes - by making them historical when he dated them. Josephus dating the Essene Judas to the Hasmonean period.

However, perhaps there is another way to look at this: Perhaps Josephus did not only ‘invent’ the Essenes when he historically dated them, - perhaps he also backdated them.....

Quote:

Philo, in Every Good Man is Free, writes:
“There is a portion of those people called Essenes, in number something more than four thousand in my opinion, who derive their name from their piety, though not according to any accurate form of the Grecian dialect, because they are above all men devoted to the service of God, not sacrificing living animals, but studying rather to preserve their own minds in a state of holiness and purity.... Among those men you will find no makers of arrows, or javelins, or swords, or helmets, or breastplates, or shields; no makers of arms or of military engines; no one, in short, attending to any employment whatever connected with war,... For the seventh day has been accounted holy, and on it they forgo all other tasks and come to the holy places”.

This idealistic peaceful society brings to mind OT prophecy about turning swords and spears into instruments of peaceful use .......Philo also includes a reference to the seventh day. Perhaps indicating a number symbolism - as he is known for such an interest. All of this looks to be quite in order - except for one big problem. Such a celibate society would have been out of place in Judaism - as Rachel Elior is regularly having to point out!.

Quote:

“Is it reasonable to assume that thousands of people had lived as celibates in the Land of Israel for many generations, as the well-known Greek and Latin sources suggest, while no reference to this prohibited existence, which contradicts the first biblical law of “be fruitful and multiply”, will be found in any Hebrew or Aramaic text?.” Rachel Elior.

Philo, being Jewish, would know that his idealistic society was not a Jewish society. Consequently, the question becomes why then would Philo insert such an alien idea into Jewish culture?

Here is an idea: Philo was interested in number symbolism. He was Jewish and would therefore have been interested in OT prophecy - particularly regarding the time period in which he lived and its expectations on a messiah figure. Philo lived during the years when the gospel storyline places Jesus of Nazareth as being crucified around 30/33 CE - some years prior to his own death in 50 CE.

From his abode in Alexandria, Philo would have at least cast on eye on events in Israel. Nothing happened. No flesh and blood messiah arrived to usher in an age of peace and brotherhood. Did Philo do a rethink? Did he notice something or another; something that could be viewed symbolically, something that could be interpreted from recent history. Was he saying in effect, when he placed his idealistic Essene community in Israel prior to 50 CE - that he was marking the historical spot from which he had interpreted something - something quite alien to Jewish ideas and culture? A universal, free, brotherhood of all men.....i.e no more a specific group of ‘chosen people’....

Some years later Josephus takes up the Essene marker - and uses it as his own marker when he backdates Philo’ Essenes - transforming them into Essene prophets - and thus making a ‘historical’ reality from the symbolism of Philo’ Essenes.

What was Josephus up to with backdating Philo’ Essenes - seems Josephus needs to be put before a court of inquiry......

aa5874 · 05-10-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Here is an idea: Philo was interested in number symbolism. He was Jewish and would therefore have been interested in OT prophecy - particularly regarding the time period in which he lived and its expectations on a messiah figure. Philo lived during the years when the gospel storyline places Jesus of Nazareth as being crucified around 30/33 CE - some years prior to his own death in 50 CE.

From his abode in Alexandria, Philo would have at least cast on eye on events in Israel. Nothing happened. No flesh and blood messiah arrived to usher in an age of peace and brotherhood. Did Philo do a rethink? Did he notice something or another; something that could be viewed symbolically, something that could be interpreted from recent history. Was he saying in effect, when he placed his idealistic Essene community in Israel prior to 50 CE - that he was marking the historical spot from which he had interpreted something - something quite alien to Jewish ideas and culture? A universal, free, brotherhood of all men.....i.e no more a specific group of ‘chosen people’....

Some years later Josephus takes up the Essene marker - and uses it as his own marker when he backdates Philo’ Essenes - transforming them into Essene prophets - and thus making a ‘historical’ reality from the symbolism of Philo’ Essenes.

What was Josephus up to with backdating Philo’ Essenes - seems Josephus needs to be put before a court of inquiry......

You are now at the point where you are believing what you imagine is true.

If you think Josephus invented the Essenes then it is better to provide the evidence rather than make up imaginative anecdotes which cannot ever be supported by any evidence whatsoever.

maryhelena · 05-10-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Here is an idea: Philo was interested in number symbolism. He was Jewish and would therefore have been interested in OT prophecy - particularly regarding the time period in which he lived and its expectations on a messiah figure. Philo lived during the years when the gospel storyline places Jesus of Nazareth as being crucified around 30/33 CE - some years prior to his own death in 50 CE.

From his abode in Alexandria, Philo would have at least cast on eye on events in Israel. Nothing happened. No flesh and blood messiah arrived to usher in an age of peace and brotherhood. Did Philo do a rethink? Did he notice something or another; something that could be viewed symbolically, something that could be interpreted from recent history. Was he saying in effect, when he placed his idealistic Essene community in Israel prior to 50 CE - that he was marking the historical spot from which he had interpreted something - something quite alien to Jewish ideas and culture? A universal, free, brotherhood of all men.....i.e no more a specific group of ‘chosen people’....

Some years later Josephus takes up the Essene marker - and uses it as his own marker when he backdates Philo’ Essenes - transforming them into Essene prophets - and thus making a ‘historical’ reality from the symbolism of Philo’ Essenes.

What was Josephus up to with backdating Philo’ Essenes - seems Josephus needs to be put before a court of inquiry......

You are now at the point where you are believing what you imagine is true.

That's rather personal don't you think?

Quote:

If you think Josephus invented the Essenes then it is better to provide the evidence rather than make up imaginative anecdotes which cannot ever be supported by any evidence whatsoever.

Rachel Elior is the one who came up with the argument that Josephus 'invented' the Essenes. I am simply going along with this idea as I find it to be a very interesting argument.

As to providing evidence that the Essenes did not exist - surely it is those who believe that the Essenes existed that must come up with the proof?

There is no record of any Essenes until Philo put pen to paper. Where Josephus got his 'evidence' that they existed way back into the Hasmonean period - goodness only knows - maybe one of those dreams that he was wont to have in the night....

Quote:

"..he called to mind the dreams which he had dreamed in the night time, whereby God had signified to him beforehand both the future calamities of the Jews, and the events that concerned the Roman emperors. Now Josephus was able to give shrewd conjectures about the interpretation of such dreams as have been ambiguously delivered by God. Moreover, he was not unacquainted with the prophecies contained in the sacred books, as being a priest himself, and of the posterity of priests: and just then was he in an ecstasy;.". War book 3 ch.8 par 9 .

aa5874 · 05-10-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

As to providing evidence that the Essenes did not exist - surely it is those who believe that the Essenes existed that must come up with the proof?

Not at all. If you think that Josephus invented the Essenes even though Philo and Pliny mentioned them, you must provide the evidence for the supposed invention.

It should be noted that all three writers, Philo, Josephus and Pliny wrote as though the Essenes did exist at the time of writing and Pliny did identify an actual geographic location of some Essenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

There is no record of any Essenes until Philo put pen to paper. Where Josephus got his 'evidence' that they existed way back into the Hasmonean period - goodness only knows - maybe one of those dreams that he was wont to have in the night...

So, you mean that three authors independently invented thousands of people and nobody noticed the invention?

The approximate 2500 word description of the Essenes in the writings of Josephus could have hardly been missed and there appears to be no benefit to Josephus to invent thousands of people who supposedly lived at the very same time as Josephus, Philo and Pliny.

maryhelena · 05-10-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

As to providing evidence that the Essenes did not exist - surely it is those who believe that the Essenes existed that must come up with the proof?

Not at all. If you think that Josephus invented the Essenes even though Philo and Pliny mentioned them, you must provide the evidence for the supposed invention.

It should be noted that all three writers, Philo, Josephus and Pliny wrote as though the Essenes did exist at the time of writing and Pliny did identify an actual geographic location of some Essenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

There is no record of any Essenes until Philo put pen to paper. Where Josephus got his 'evidence' that they existed way back into the Hasmonean period - goodness only knows - maybe one of those dreams that he was wont to have in the night...

So, you mean that three authors independently invented thousands of people and nobody noticed the invention?

The approximate 2500 word description of the Essenes in the writings of Josephus could have hardly been missed and there appears to be no benefit to Josephus to invent thousands of people who supposedly lived at the very same time as Josephus, Philo and Pliny.

Now, if you have some evidence that these Essenes are historical people, then feel free to produce it....Rachel Elior is still standing by her position - and todate, no academic has provided any evidence that the Essenes were historical - all assumptions.....

As to why Josephus decides to date the Essenes - and to backdate them - that is another question - and as I said in my earlier post - Josephus needs to be re-examined - especially as regards the view of him as only being a historian. A view which conveniently puts aside his own words that show he is interested in dreams and their interpretation and prophecy in the sacred books........

As to why Josephus has made the Essenes historical - big question and however I answer that your probably going to take it as being assumption anyway - just as my point regarding my idea of why Philo placed his Essenes in Israel at the time that he did - was taken as being something I believe because I imagined it......

So, rather than asking me for more of my imaginings.....how about you providing some evidence that would make my imaginings nonsensical.....

Rachel Elior quote:

Quote:

The Essenes were first introduced by Philo (d. 50 CE), a first century Jewish scholar who lived in Alexandria. Philo was interested in the ideas of the Stoa and told his readers that there were more than 4,000 Essenes (Essaioi) living in villages throughout the Land of Israel. He maintained that these people had no monetary concerns, lived a very simple, modest life, did not have any earthly possessions, devoted much of their time to study, and observed the Sabbath according to all the strictest instructions. He further noted their love of God, their concerns with piety, honesty, morality, philanthropy, holiness, equality, freedom, and the importance of communal life. He added that the holy Essenes did not marry and lived a celibate life, and practiced communal residence, money, property, food and clothing. He said that they convened in synagogues every Sabbath and studied the law according to philosophical and allegorical interpretations. He maintained that these people cherished freedom, possessed no slaves, and resented the use of weapons or participation in commerce. Philo did not mention any name, place, date, or historical circumstances, or any background to the consolidation of this group.

However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi. Rachel Elior

mountainman · 05-11-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

There is no record of any Essenes until Philo put pen to paper. Where Josephus got his 'evidence' that they existed way back into the Hasmonean period - goodness only knows - maybe one of those dreams that he was wont to have in the night...

So, you mean that three authors independently invented thousands of people and nobody noticed the invention?

The approximate 2500 word description of the Essenes in the writings of Josephus could have hardly been missed and there appears to be no benefit to Josephus to invent thousands of people who supposedly lived at the very same time as Josephus, Philo and Pliny.

The interpolation (or even partial interpolation)
of the TF seems to have benefited Eusebius.

The inference of a few thousand "proto-christians"
would have benefited Eusebius down to the ground.

Who preserved and transmitted Josephus ?
Was this transmission faithful?

Toto · 05-11-2009, 01:16 AM

I don't see how proto-Christians, especially if they lived before Jesus, would fit in with Eusebius' purposes.

The Christians who preserved Josephus read it primarily as confirmation of the destruction visited upon the Jews for rejecting Jesus. What would they have gained from any evidence of proto-Christians? That seems to be more of a modern concern.

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05-11-2009, 01:16 AM	#170
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't see how proto-Christians, especially if they lived before Jesus, would fit in with Eusebius' purposes. The Christians who preserved Josephus read it primarily as confirmation of the destruction visited upon the Jews for rejecting Jesus. What would they have gained from any evidence of proto-Christians? That seems to be more of a modern concern.

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