Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
05-09-2009, 06:42 AM | #161 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: illinois
Posts: 688
|
Quote:
Is there someone around who can explain this? |
||
05-09-2009, 03:49 PM | #162 | |
Contributor
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
|
Back to Elior: From the sun to the moon
Quote:
|
|
05-09-2009, 04:47 PM | #163 | |
Regular Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: EARTH
Posts: 463
|
I have been doing some research myself, and it ain’t just lukee (Christianity) who’s got some splainen to do.
If it is cancer that Ms. Elior is looking for, perhaps she can begin here: A just man? http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...0ben%20Shetach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_ben_Shetach From the link that you have provided I smell apologetics, excuses, excuses.............pass the buck? Quote:
|
|
05-10-2009, 09:20 AM | #164 | ||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2,527
|
For the sake of argument, lets assume that Rachel Elior is right regarding the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls being from the Zadokite priesthood. The ‘ball’ is therefore back in the scholarly camp that wants to maintain the connection between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes. This connection being particularly vital for the historical Jesus camp, a camp that needs Josephus to be squeaky clean on matters of historical facts....i.e. a camp that would not like to have to face a Josephus interested in prophetic or number symbolism....
Rachel Elior says Josephus ‘invented’ the Essenes - by making them historical when he dated them. Josephus dating the Essene Judas to the Hasmonean period. However, perhaps there is another way to look at this: Perhaps Josephus did not only ‘invent’ the Essenes when he historically dated them, - perhaps he also backdated them..... Quote:
Quote:
Here is an idea: Philo was interested in number symbolism. He was Jewish and would therefore have been interested in OT prophecy - particularly regarding the time period in which he lived and its expectations on a messiah figure. Philo lived during the years when the gospel storyline places Jesus of Nazareth as being crucified around 30/33 CE - some years prior to his own death in 50 CE. From his abode in Alexandria, Philo would have at least cast on eye on events in Israel. Nothing happened. No flesh and blood messiah arrived to usher in an age of peace and brotherhood. Did Philo do a rethink? Did he notice something or another; something that could be viewed symbolically, something that could be interpreted from recent history. Was he saying in effect, when he placed his idealistic Essene community in Israel prior to 50 CE - that he was marking the historical spot from which he had interpreted something - something quite alien to Jewish ideas and culture? A universal, free, brotherhood of all men.....i.e no more a specific group of ‘chosen people’.... Some years later Josephus takes up the Essene marker - and uses it as his own marker when he backdates Philo’ Essenes - transforming them into Essene prophets - and thus making a ‘historical’ reality from the symbolism of Philo’ Essenes. What was Josephus up to with backdating Philo’ Essenes - seems Josephus needs to be put before a court of inquiry...... |
||
05-10-2009, 04:09 PM | #165 | |
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
Quote:
If you think Josephus invented the Essenes then it is better to provide the evidence rather than make up imaginative anecdotes which cannot ever be supported by any evidence whatsoever. |
|
05-10-2009, 09:30 PM | #166 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2,527
|
Quote:
Quote:
As to providing evidence that the Essenes did not exist - surely it is those who believe that the Essenes existed that must come up with the proof? There is no record of any Essenes until Philo put pen to paper. Where Josephus got his 'evidence' that they existed way back into the Hasmonean period - goodness only knows - maybe one of those dreams that he was wont to have in the night.... Quote:
|
||||
05-10-2009, 10:09 PM | #167 | ||
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
Quote:
It should be noted that all three writers, Philo, Josephus and Pliny wrote as though the Essenes did exist at the time of writing and Pliny did identify an actual geographic location of some Essenes. Quote:
The approximate 2500 word description of the Essenes in the writings of Josephus could have hardly been missed and there appears to be no benefit to Josephus to invent thousands of people who supposedly lived at the very same time as Josephus, Philo and Pliny. |
||
05-10-2009, 11:10 PM | #168 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England
Posts: 2,527
|
Quote:
Now, if you have some evidence that these Essenes are historical people, then feel free to produce it....Rachel Elior is still standing by her position - and todate, no academic has provided any evidence that the Essenes were historical - all assumptions..... As to why Josephus decides to date the Essenes - and to backdate them - that is another question - and as I said in my earlier post - Josephus needs to be re-examined - especially as regards the view of him as only being a historian. A view which conveniently puts aside his own words that show he is interested in dreams and their interpretation and prophecy in the sacred books........ As to why Josephus has made the Essenes historical - big question and however I answer that your probably going to take it as being assumption anyway - just as my point regarding my idea of why Philo placed his Essenes in Israel at the time that he did - was taken as being something I believe because I imagined it...... So, rather than asking me for more of my imaginings.....how about you providing some evidence that would make my imaginings nonsensical..... Rachel Elior quote: Quote:
|
||||
05-11-2009, 12:13 AM | #169 | ||
Contributor
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
|
Quote:
of the TF seems to have benefited Eusebius. The inference of a few thousand "proto-christians" would have benefited Eusebius down to the ground. Who preserved and transmitted Josephus ? Was this transmission faithful? |
||
05-11-2009, 01:16 AM | #170 |
Contributor
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
|
I don't see how proto-Christians, especially if they lived before Jesus, would fit in with Eusebius' purposes.
The Christians who preserved Josephus read it primarily as confirmation of the destruction visited upon the Jews for rejecting Jesus. What would they have gained from any evidence of proto-Christians? That seems to be more of a modern concern. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|