quip

Change? Based on what, (non-existent) time?

This seems a paradox indeed, yet this paradox begets a God-like answer!

:devil1: Being devil's advo here.

Hedshaker

bloody server

Hedshaker

[double post

Hedshaker

No, it was not refering to a "God time" neither did I mention a "God time" in that post. I don't believe in any gods nor do I have any interest in the concept of a "God time". The only person who has mentioned anything about a "God time" being impossible is YOU. It appears that you are the one who is full of it and thoroughly dishonest to boot! Now admit you got itwrong.


That conversation is done now, you should have read it properly at the time then maybe you wouldn't have taken it out of context and falsely put words in my mouth.

I'm doging nothing. You asked me to prove a "God time" is impossible and I'm asking you (4 times now) to show me where I said a "God time" is impossible. Can you do that? You can't because I didn't say it. Now have the guts to admit it.


My "stupid" comments are backed up by the FACT that I didn't say what you accused me of saying. I don't like people putting words that I didn't say in my mouth. Please don't do it again.

If you haven't got the honesty to admit you are wrong when you clearly were wrong I will have put you on ignore

KnightTemplar

Well, if the universe is defined with Space-Time. Then while creating it, God really needs his own personal time dimension, else it is a paradox..

So, when someone says there is a God. He automatically says there is a "God-Time".

quip

Honesty has nothing to do with it (from my end). I'm simply asking you to clarify your statement and the (possible) implications surrounding this previous statement. If you refuse to deal with and/or deny these implications then so be it, I cannot force you to do so.....thus, there is no more to be said of the subject. Ignore away!

MxM111

Bingo!

However, can anyone answer what is the difference between space coordinate and time coordinate? If that other time is not our time, how is it different from just extra-coordinate?

When we say that change requires time, it is not strictly speaking true. Change can happen withing space - time is not required for that. So, can consciousness that makes decisions be in space coordinate rather than in time coordinate? If it is not "our" time, is there any difference between space and time?

Lycius

No, you don't. If it exceeds the bounds of the paradox, then you're arguing against something other than the paradox. If you'd like to start a new thread, with a new argument, involving something besides Dragomb's paradox, go right ahead.

No, you just shifted things back to another dimension needing the time to create it. Infinite regress. If this other dimension of time didn't need time in order to create, you'll need to provide an explanation which again faces the same paradox. If you choose to ignore it, you're not arguing against the paradox.

What the paradox states, is that this god is defined as the conscious first cause. Not just this timeline, but everything. First is first is first.

You haven't defined this "God's time" as something which can escape the paradox, only some as-yet undefined variable which can trump anything. I could just as well say there's an anti-god's-time which trumps your god's time, and say I can't define it, but it negates your argument at every turn, no matter what you say. See how absurd that sounds?

By adding some undefined dimension of time, you have. As I said, I could counter it with something equally as absurd. Neither does anything to forward either argument.

By not requiring a first cause, there's nothing to set in motion or allow for the presented deity's actions. That time axis would suffer from the exact same paradox as ours.

MxM111

Let me repeat again what I just said and what you have quoted: "As long as those "goalpost shifting" does not contradict logic, observation, and conditions of the paradox, I have right doing it." If you want to use the word "bounds" instead of "conditions" it is fine with me.

I did not shift the paradox. That other time was not created, It was always existed (or looped). There is no FC of that time, thus there is no paradox with that time.

Including himself? Are you saying that it is a condition of the paradox that God is FC for himself? I do not think so. And if you say that he is, then you simply demand impossible: a thing can not create itself.

But you see, there might be that "anti-god's-time" or there might not. There might be that my "god time" and there may not. In case of your "anti-god's-time" it does not say anything about paradox validity, but in terms of my god-time it show the way how paradox can be broken. A million examples supporting paradox does not prove paradox, yet a single valid example that shows that paradox can be resolved breaks the paradox. So, it does not matter how many anti-god's-time you can invent for the support of the paradox.

First, the above reply is not related to the quote to which you are replying. Second, if that second time always existed, it is not subject to paradox, because it does not have FC (and it is part of God).

Finally, it may be helpful for our discussion if you read my post #194 (link) to be sure that we are on the same page about what constitutes the paradox.

Lycius

Er, no. If you can invent some out of time scope to break the paradox, then it's just as valid for me to invent another one, over and over again ad infinitum, to bring it back into line. I can say just as easily, "A million examples that show the paradox can be resolved doesn't break the paradox, but a single valid example that supports it makes it unbreakable." Doesn't mean anything more than what you said in the "anything goes" manner you're going about things.

That's how meaningless this little "God's time" you propose is to the paradox, and why it's irrelevant. When you can just invent new angles all the time, it's like kid's coming up with their own new rules for UNO as they play. "Yah huh!" "Nuh uh!" Yah huh!" "Nuh uuuuuh!" over and over again. Have fun with it, but it ain't UNO.