Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 09-10-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

phoenixmythological bird

Main

in ancient Egypt and in classical antiquity, a fabulous bird associated with the worship of the sun. The Egyptian phoenix was said to be as large as an eagle, with brilliant scarlet and gold plumage and a melodious cry. Only one phoenix existed at any time, and it was very long-lived—no ancient authority gave it a life span of less than 500 years. As its end approached, the phoenix fashioned a nest of aromatic boughs and spices, set it on fire, and was consumed in the flames. From the pyre miraculously sprang a new phoenix, which, after embalming its father’s ashes in an egg of myrrh, flew with the ashes to Heliopolis (“City of the Sun”) in Egypt, where it deposited them on the altar in the temple of the Egyptian god of the sun, Re. A variant of the story made the dying phoenix fly to Heliopolis and immolate itself in the altar fire, from which the young phoenix then rose.

The Egyptians associated the phoenix with immortality, and that symbolism had a widespread appeal in late antiquity. The phoenix was compared to undying Rome, and it appears on the coinage of the late Roman Empire as a symbol of the Eternal City. It was also widely interpreted as an allegory of resurrection and life after death—ideas that also appealed to emergent Christianity.
In Islāmic mythology the phoenix was identified with the ʿanqāʾ (Persian: sīmorgh), a huge, mysterious bird (probably a heron) that was originally created by God with all perfections but had thereafter become a plague and was killed.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...457189/phoenix

Note that your source does not claim, let alone moot the idea, that the allegory of the Phoenix was the origin of the story of Jesus' resurrection.

In any case, perhaps, Clive, you could adduce some actual early Christian texts that show when (first century? second? third?) and by whom (Aleaxandrines? Antiochenes?) and where (the Latin West? the Greek East?)the allegory was first employed in "emergent Christianity" and in what ways it "appealed" to, and was applied to Jesus' resurrection, by members of that movement?

You do know this, don't you?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 09-10-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There is a translation here of the Descent of Inanna

Andrew Criddle

Which, notably, does not say Inanna dies.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 09-10-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix.

??

Jeffrey Gibson · 09-10-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix.

??

You do realize don't you, that the resurrection of Jesus is not what Clement says the φοίνιξ (here construed quite differently from the flaming one) is a sign of, don't you, and therefore that the text you appeal to is a misrepresentation of Clement's words and of his intent?

Have you not read 1 Clement 25.1.1 in context?

Since the likely assumption is that you have not, here is the passage in which it appears. Note especially 24.1.1 and 26.1.1.

Quote:

[INDENT24.1.1 Κατανοήσωμεν, ἀγαπητοί, πῶς ὁ δεσπότης ἐπιδείκνυται διηνεκῶς ἡμῖν τὴν μ�*λλουσαν ἀνάστασιν ἔσεσθαι,
ἧς τὴν ἀπαρχὴν ἐποιήσατο τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστήσας.
24.2.1 Ἴδωμεν, ἀγαπητοί, τὴν κατὰ καιρὸν γινομ�*νην ἀνάστασιν.
24.3.1 Ἡμ�*ρα καὶ νὺξ ἀνάστασιν ἡμῖν δηλοῦσιν· κοιμᾶται ἡ νύξ, ἀνίσταται ἡ ἡμ�*ρα· ἡ ἡμ�*ρα ἄπεισιν, νὺξ ἐπ�*ρχεται.
24.4.1 Λάβωμεν τοὺς καρπούς· ὁ σπ]25.1.1 Ἴδωμεν τὸ παράδοξον σημεῖον τὸ γινόμενον ἐν τοῖς
ἀνατολικοῖς τόποις, τουτ�*στιν τοῖς περὶ τὴν Ἀραβίαν.
25.2.1 Ὄρνεον γάρ ἐστιν, ὃ προσονομάζεται φοίνιξ· τοῦτο μονογενὲς ὑπάρχον ζῇ ἔτη πεντακόσια, γενόμενόν τε ἤδη πρὸς
ἀπόλυσιν τοῦ ἀποθανεῖν αὐτὸ σηκὸν ἑαυτῷ ποιεῖ ἐκ λιβάνου καὶ σμύρνης καὶ τῶν λοιπῶν ἀρωμάτων, εἰς ὃν πληρωθ�*ντος
25.2.5 τοῦ χρόνου εἰσ�*ρχεται καὶ τελευτᾷ.
25.3.1 Σηπομ�*νης δὲ τῆς σαρκὸς σκώληξ τις γεννᾶται, ὃς ἐκ τῆς ἰκμάδος τοῦ τετελευτηκότος ζῴου ἀνατρεφόμενος πτεροφυεῖ· εἶτα γενναῖος γενόμενος αἴρει τὸν σηκὸν ἐκεῖνον, ὅπου τὰ ὀστᾶ τοῦ προγεγο
25.3.5 νότος ἐστίν, καὶ ταῦτα βαστάζων διανύει ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀραβικῆς χώρας ἕως τῆς Αἰγύπτου εἰς τὴν λεγομ�*νην Ἡλιούπολιν.
25.4.1 Καὶ ἡμ�*ρας, βλεπόντων πάντων, ἐπιπτὰς ἐπὶ τὸν τοῦ ἡλίου βωμὸν τίθησιν αὐτὰ καὶ οὕτως εἰς τοὐπίσω ἀφορμᾷ.
25.5.1 Οἱ οὖν ἱερεῖς ἐπισκ�*πτονται τὰς ἀναγραφὰς τῶν χρόνων καὶ εὑρίσκουσιν αὐτὸν πεντακοσιοστοῦ ἔτους πεπληρωμ�*νου
ἐληλυθ�*ναι.
26.1.1 Μ�*γα καὶ θαυμαστὸν οὖν νομίζομεν εἶναι, εἰ ὁ δημιουργὸς τῶν ἁπάντων ἀνάστασιν ποιήσεται τῶν ὁσίως
αὐτῷ δουλευσάντων ἐν πεποιθήσει πίστεως ἀγαθῆς, ὅπου καὶ δι' ὀρν�*ου δείκνυσιν ἡμῖν τὸ μεγαλεῖον τῆς ἐπαγγελίας αὐτοῦ; [/INDENT]

Jeffrey

Toto · 09-10-2008, 02:24 PM

For the Greekless, see 1 Clement XXV.

There is a blog post on this here.

From here

Quote:

The Roman author Tacitus mentions an appearance of the phoenix in 34 CE (Annals, 6.28). ....

One generation later, the poet Martial used the phoenix as symbol of Rome's eternity (Epigrams 5.7). After this, it was easy for the first Christians to make the beautiful bird the symbol of the resurrection (e.g., 1 Clement 25), and the authors of Late Antiquity continued to write about this animal (e.g., Claudian, Carmina Minora, 27).

Just a borrowed symbol, it appears.

Jeffrey Gibson · 09-10-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

For the Greekless, see 1 Clement XXV.

Which fails to take into consideration what is established in 24.1 and 26.1 as that for which the Phoenix is a sign.

Quote:

There is a blog post on this here.

From here

Quote:

The Roman author Tacitus mentions an appearance of the phoenix in 34 CE (Annals, 6.28). ....

One generation later, the poet Martial used the phoenix as symbol of Rome's eternity (Epigrams 5.7). After this, it was easy for the first Christians to make the beautiful bird the symbol of the resurrection (e.g., 1 Clement 25), and the authors of Late Antiquity continued to write about this animal (e.g., Claudian, Carmina Minora, 27).

Just a borrowed symbol, it appears.

And one that not only was used in Western Christianity only, not Eastern, but whose symbolism had to be explained. Quite strange if it is the basis of the theme of Jesus' resurrection.

See R. van den Broek, The Myth of the Phoenix according to Classical and Early Christian Traditions. Leiden, 1972.

Jeffrey

Toto · 09-10-2008, 02:55 PM

Not Eastern Christianity? I was just in St. Sophia's Cathedral in Los Angeles, which has golden phoenixes as part of its sacred art.

Jeffrey Gibson · 09-10-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Not Eastern Christianity? I was just in St. Sophia's Cathedral in Los Angeles, which has golden phoenixes as part of its sacred art.

Please show me where in the writings of the Greek fathers up through the 5th century CE the Phoenix is referred to vis a vis Jesus or Christians or resurrection.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 09-10-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

The first Greek known to have mentioned the phoenix ("the 'brilliant one"), was the poet Hesiod (c.700 BCE), who in The precepts of Chiron stresses the phoenix's longevity of almost 100,000 years.

Sorry Jeffrey, you have to show why a basic Greek myth is not used by later Eastern xians as a sign - was there theological discussion somewhere that it was a Satanic copy for example?

And the 34CE reference is very interesting!

And why this limitation to writing? Exploring a subject requires looking at all the evidence - and in any case writing is a very formalised form of art.

Toto · 09-10-2008, 03:13 PM

There was no split between the Eastern and Western churches in the 5th century. If no Greek father can be found who wrote about the phoenix, does it mean that the Greek churches ignored the symbol, which was in cultures all around them (including their own pagan ancestors), and then adopted it from the Roman heretics?

Or what was the point of saying that the symbol was "used in Western Christianity only, not Eastern?"

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09-10-2008, 02:55 PM	#27
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Not Eastern Christianity? I was just in St. Sophia's Cathedral in Los Angeles, which has golden phoenixes as part of its sacred art.

09-10-2008, 03:13 PM	#30
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There was no split between the Eastern and Western churches in the 5th century. If no Greek father can be found who wrote about the phoenix, does it mean that the Greek churches ignored the symbol, which was in cultures all around them (including their own pagan ancestors), and then adopted it from the Roman heretics? Or what was the point of saying that the symbol was "used in Western Christianity only, not Eastern?"

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