greyline

Uh, we cannot live without a brain, either. Or without skin. Or without kidneys. Or without ... quite a few bits and pieces that make up our body.

There's nothing about blood that makes it the "life" of the body.

voodoomage

As greyline has posted above me, there are plenty of ways to die without the loss of, or impurity of, blood.

As far as the symbolic message pointing towards a savior, I don't buy it. God didn't tell the jews that they were to sacrifice animals to symbolically allude to jesus, nor did they believe that this was what they were doing when they performed the rituals. Nor did god mention any of this. Its simply a christian re-interpretation of old jewish tradition.

Also, of no small importance, is the idea of clean and unclean animals with respect to blood sacrifices. Pigs, one of the most notorious unclean animals, have blood very similar to our own, and are used extensively in drug testing - there's no reason pig blood should not be a suitable sacrifice.

Carin Nel

Take it or leave it. This is the reason.
The things of the spirit cannot be understood by the the world.
God even says that to obey is better than sacrifice, so we obey Him, even if we don't always understand the reason why He gives a certain command.

The world (meaning people who dont believe in God) will never understand it.
So don't ask me any questions again, because you don't accept my christian answers. I'm fine with that.

I'm wasting your time.

Regards
Carin Nel

greyline

Is this a discussion board or a monologue board?

dzim77

Let's start with this.... since you are asking a theological question based with the premise of a Biblical doctrine... we must answer based on Biblical theology.

Here's an attempt...

God can 'bend the rules of reality' but he can not act against his character. God is just - infinitely just. He must remain true to his character of justice. Therefore sin MUST be punished. ALL sin that was ever committed must be punished for God to maintain his justice.

example... if a judge were presented in the courtroom with a murderer, let's say the murderer was even his friend. the judge may have compassion on this murderer and let him go free. In this case, the judge would be 'compassionate' (at least towards the murderer) but he would not be JUST. A just judge must condemn the murderer regardless of his feelings for him.

So, since God is just, he must punish sin. According to the Bible all have sinned, and since God is infinite in justice, any sin is an infinite offense against Him. In order to remain faithful to his character of just-ness he must either
1. punish sinners for eternity
2. provide an infinitely worthy sacrifice to atone for sin (the whole Hebrew sacrificial system is a picture of the idea of sacrificial atonement).

So, lets say for argument's sake that one perfectly sinless man could replace another sinful man as a sacrifice for his sins. Ok, now there's billions more sinners to still account for- requiring a billion more sinless men as atoning sacrifices (of course, it does not work this way Biblically but just to get the concept across). Now, Jesus, being God, is an infinitely worthy and holy sacrifice - able to atone for an infinite number of sinners who would accept this sacrifice by faith. So, according to the Bible, in order to satisfy the justice of God, Jesus HAD to die as an atoning sacrifice for sinners.

In a beatiful and astounding way, the cross not only satisfies God's justice, but also demonstrates (proves) his love. "For God so loved the world He gave his only son, that whoever would believe in Him would not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16) (notice, this is NOT a Pauline epistle). So the cross simultaneously satisfies God's justice and demonstrates his love by offering a way for sinners to be forgiven.

Also, according to the Bible - Jesus is GOD. For God to become one of his creation. To live among us. To actually serve us and wash our feet. On the cross, Jesus did not just endure physical pain... for the first time in eternity he was actually completely separated from his Father and endured the full wrath of his Father (crying out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). The Bible says that he 'became sin' or 'took our sin' on himself - the infinitely holy God taking on the sin of the world and suffering a million 'hells' on the cross.

...If you don't think that's a big deal I don't know what to say.

Well, actually, if you read the Gospel accounts, the sky went dark in mid day, as he died there was a violent earthquake, the huge curtain in the temple was torn in half, a centurion watching him die exclaimed 'surely this was the Son of God!' because of the way he died, and Jesus died with a shout of victory "It is finished!"

Again, at least from the beginning of his ministry, Jesus knew that he was headed toward the cross. He constantly told his disciples, 'it is not yet my time', he fortold of his death on the cross and his resurrection as well and told his disciples... "Anyone who would come after me must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

The idea of sacrificial atonement is, i admit, beyond my understaning. That God would actually sacrifice His own Son to forgive rebellious sinners. But to me it is a beautiful, humbling, and infinitely wise act of redemption that God has chosen to use so that we may know and worship Him.

Please, no offense intended by the following verses... (i consider myself to be a 'foolish' one many times in my life). but these verses talk about God's chosing to use the method of the cross... something to think about.

"18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

1 Corinthians 1:18-25

greyline

I don't find this to be logical. You haven't shown how "any sin" is equivalent to an infinite sin that causes infinite offense.

If the punishment doesn't fit the crime, God's "justice" isn't just, let alone infinite.

Toto

I'm glad you are not actually pretending that there is any sense in your post, or that it was meant to be understood.

To say that God can bend reality but is somehow forced to punish sin OR atone for it with blood is pretty bizarre. God can change the laws of nature, which is somehow not out of character, but can't escape acting like an early Ancient Near East despot - because God's character includes your peculiar definition of "just" - strains logic.

And how this strange behavior allows anyone to "know" and/or "worship" this deity escapes me.

dzim77

On the cross, Jesus said to the thief next to him, "Today, you will be with me in paradise." As he died on the cross he exclaimed, "It is finished!", implying his work of suffering and atonement was done.

So the answer is that He was in heaven with his Father after the cross, before the resurrection.

On the cross he suffered 'a billion hells' as he was seperated from his Father who he had been one with from eternity past - and he endured the wrath of his Father as well. After this suffering he 'retook' his glory.

again... you asked a theological question so i'm giving a theological answer

dzim77

Not much of a sacrifice if you are a human dying for another human. But if it is GOD that is laying down his glory incarnate as a human, to serve and to die for his creation, it is quite an amazing sacrifice. You have to understand and take into account the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man to understand the depth of this sacrifice.

Also, the major purpose of the cross was not to only to show 'how much Jesus can suffer' but to make a way for sinners to be forgiven and to know God. [/QUOTE]

dzim77

**Again, to make a clarification, I am trying to answer a THEOLOGICAL question. This must be answered with Biblical theology. If not, you can just make up any answer you'd like. I'm trying to answer the question according to the Bible and established Biblical theology. If you don't agree, that's fine, but please show me Biblical proof. If you have a differing personal opinion, there's not much room for me to disagree with you there **


ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE...

God is infinite.
God is just. Because he is just he MUST punish sin. This is the Bible's definition of just... not my particular definition.
God is holy. Because God is infinitely Holy, any sin against Him, though it may seem small in our human eyes... is an infinite sin according to God's holy standard.
(Besides we're more sinful than we realize... let's say you're really good and commit 5 sins a day. If you live to by 30 that's like 55,000 sins... for a silly example).

Our sins separate us from a holy God. We can not have a relationship with him because of our sinfulness. Again, according to the Bible, by trusting in Christ's atoning sacrifice we can be forgiven and cleansed of our sins, thus opening the way to have a personal relationship with God... knowing and worshipping him.

**sorry for all the mulitple posts... my browser was jacked***