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Old 03-03-2008, 09:41 PM   #111
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Jesus taught that even the miracle of someone rising from the dead and warning a man of the consequences of rebelling against God will not convince him to repent of his sins and turn to God if he doesn't want to (Luke 16:31). It is not lack of evidence that keeps us from God (he has made his existence and his love for us clear for all to see), but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.
Actually its very doubtful that there ever was any "Jesus", that was anything at all similar to the fictional comic book hero that was created by the latter Christian writers.

You know, the story might have had some small chance of being somewhat believable, if these writers hadn't gotten so carried away in "spreading it on so thick" in their production.
But, nope, the Christian writers simply couldn't leave a good story alone with Lazarus and Jesus rising from the dead, but in their over enthusiasm they thought it would be really cool and even more impressive if a lot of other graves also opened up, a bunch of zombies began wandering around all over Jerusalem.
And of course then we get more stories of the disciples going out and raising up dead people here there and everywhere, as though doing so were as common as taking a piss.

And yes, IT IS a lack of evidence, A TOTAL lack of evidence, that keeps rational people from believing in your "God", and from buying into that story presented in your line of comic books.

You have absolutely NO evidence that "Jesus" or anyone else has ever been able to raise people from the dead, only a bunch of totally unverifiable fantastic claims with no sensible reason at all for anyone to accept them.
Demonstrate his, or your, ability to restore life to dead bodies, and then you will have something to talk about, instead of simply opening your mouth to spread your halitosis.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:52 PM   #112
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but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.

In my case, it's the refusal to admit that there are any 'holy gods' kicking around in the first place.

Trotting out iron age superstition is really not very convincing.
But there has never been any lack of "holey" gods.:Cheeky:
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:53 PM   #113
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however, something is still holding me back from denyign it fully.

What is this?
...conviction. It takes time to deprogram. But once you realized your beliefs were an absurd house of cards, it was inevitable.

The reality is, you already deconverted. You just don't appreciate it yet.
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Old 03-04-2008, 06:05 AM   #114
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One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will.
Jesus taught that even the miracle of someone rising from the dead and warning a man of the consequences of rebelling against God will not convince him to repent of his sins and turn to God if he doesn't want to (Luke 16:31). It is not lack of evidence that keeps us from God (he has made his existence and his love for us clear for all to see), but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.
I think you need to read Why won't God heal amputees?
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:31 AM   #115
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I must admit, Half-Life, your adamant and illogical posts supporting Christianity (or what was your version of it) and now your quick deconversion are...puzzling. If now you are free, congratulations. I am rather surprised it was so quick, however, and so quick deconversions where no doubt before is a sign of illogical thought processes. But if you've been harboring these thoughts for a while, then perhaps you've now come to see the light.
Catherine Armstrong's theory regarding religious fanaticism and fundamentalism is that the most extreme fanatics are in fact the doubters. They are so to speak, trying to suppress their own thoughts. That's also why they have a tendency to go off the deep and and rarely come across as coherent. Since they don't in their hearts believe any of it.

I mean, why would a Christian go looking for others to convert. He trusts and loves God and can be sure that God will see to it that those who matters to him will get convinced. No stress, no worries. No need to be fanatical. No need to convert. No need to question ones own faith. The type of Christianity that can be labelled as evangelical, is according to the philosopher Daniel Dennett, belief in belief in God. Not actual Christian faith.

But hey Half-life: Even if you reject God, you're still not in the atheist goal. Never stop questioning. The critical stance is the only attitude if you care about truth. It's great you've reached this turning point. The only thing that sucks about the "truth" is that it is one elusive beast. Anyway. What I want to say is that rejecting the idea that "faith" is some kind of answer to anything is the key. I'd say you've already succeeding in joining modernity. Now you can create the life you want for yourself
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:44 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic
One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aChristian
Jesus taught that even the miracle of someone rising from the dead and warning a man of the consequences of rebelling against God will not convince him to repent of his sins and turn to God if he doesn't want to (Luke 16:31). It is not lack of evidence that keeps us from God (he has made his existence and his love for us clear for all to see), but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.
On the contrary, if Jesus had predicted the names of all of the Roman emperors for the next 200 years, and the dates of their birth and death, surely more people would have become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Consider the following Scriptures:

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-45

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

In those cases, Jesus' words alone were not enough to convince people to accept him, and he willingly provided them with the tangible, firsthand evidence that they needed. The lesson from those Scriptures is that words do not confirm miracles. Miracles confirm words.

The fallible, imperfect Bible writers were not in any position to accurately judge whether or not God is infallible and perfect. Regarding infallible and perfect beings, it takes one to know one, and the Bible writers were not one. The claims that God is infallible and perfect must be taken entirely by faith, or rejected.

What is God trying to accomplish? Why does he predict the future?

By the way, you cannot reasonably be certain that Jesus said everything that the New Testament says that he said. If you would like to make case that God inspired and preserved the originals, please start a new thread and do so.
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:51 AM   #117
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the miracle of someone rising from the dead
Almost right. Please let me correct that phrase:

... the myth of someone rising from the grave ...

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It is not lack of evidence that keeps us from God (he has made his existence and his love for us clear for all to see)
It is EXACTLY a lack of evidence that leads most of us away from god. And a huge pile of discrepancies and absurdities contained IN religion.

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but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him
Oh come now. Original sin is a useless and counterproductive as the myth of the risen god. A loving god would never inflict such horrible burdens on his beloved children. One more indication that your god is but a reflection of humankind and nothing resembling a genuine deity.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:42 AM   #118
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Hello
I have ocd that's why I kept writing those messages yersterday.
It's gotten worse I think because of some stressful situations lately.
It's quite an unusual reason why I kept doing it.
It was not to be cruel or vindictive.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:47 AM   #119
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Hello
I have ocd that's why I kept writing those messages yersterday.
It's gotten worse I think because of some stressful situations lately.
It's quite an unusual reason why I kept doing it.
It was not to be cruel or vindictive.
It's ok, CE. Thank you for explaining your behavior. I apologize for jumping on you earlier. I hope you've got some support on your end to help with the stress.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:47 AM   #120
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He developed a closeness with Jewish people for some strange reason.

He picks Israel as his "favorite nation" for unknown reasons instead of the whole world.


If you or I were trying to influence a race of mammals on an alien planet, we would start *somewhere*. There seems no special reason not to, anyway. Surely?

Why would an omni-everything deity have to start with just one small tribe in the Middle East--to the exclusion of other people that he created--rather than revealing himself to everyone? Amos makes explicit that Israel was the only nation that Yahweh knew:


Quote:
Amos 3:1-2
Hear this word that Yahweh has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.


Other passages make clear that Israel was especially chosen by Yahweh, not just a de facto starting point:



Quote:
Deuteronomy 7:6
6 For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession.



Deuteronomy 26:18
18 Today Yahweh has obtained your agreement: to be his treasured people, as he promised you, and to keep his commandments;



Exodus 19:5
5 Now therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine,


And how did this little experiment of only dealing with Israel work out? Were they more righteous than other people whom Yahweh snubbed?



Quote:
2 Kings 17:7b-18a
...the people of Israel had sinned against Yahweh their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. They had worshiped other gods 8 and walked in the customs of the nations whom Yahweh drove out before the people of Israel, and in the customs that the kings of Israel had introduced. 9 The people of Israel secretly did things that were not right against Yahweh their God. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; 10 they set up for themselves pillars and sacred poles on every high hill and under every green tree; 11 there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom Yahweh carried away before them. They did wicked things, provoking Yahweh to anger; 12 they served idols, of which Yahweh had said to them, "You shall not do this." 13 Yet Yahweh warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the law that I commanded your ancestors and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets." 14 They would not listen but were stubborn, as their ancestors had been, who did not believe in Yahweh their God. 15 They despised his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their ancestors, and the warnings that he gave them. They went after false idols and became false; they followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom Yahweh had commanded them that they should not do as they did. 16 They rejected all the commandments of Yahweh their God and made for themselves cast images of two calves; they made a sacred pole, worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 They made their sons and their daughters pass through fire; they used divination and augury; and they sold themselves to do evil in the sight of Yahweh, provoking him to anger. 18 Therefore Yahweh was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight...



Deuteronomy 9:6-7
6 Know, then, that Yahweh your God is not giving you this good land to occupy because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people. 7Remember and do not forget how you provoked Yahweh your God to wrath in the wilderness; you have been rebellious against Yahweh from the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place.
The fact that the putative God of the universe was so preoccupied with one small ANE tribe--presumably oblivious or indifferent to the existence of eskimos, American Indians, aborigines, etc.--seems more consistent with a tribal deity, who was eventually conceived as governing more than his allotted land and people in the ANE (Deut. 32:8-9 DSS, LXX) than with the wise, master plan of the Supreme Being.
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