Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 12-07-2006, 05:57 AM

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

seebs · 12-07-2006, 06:47 AM

I would say that the OT clearly condones (but limits in some ways) the practice of slavery. In the NT, it is still condoned, but some of the principles taught seem to lead inexorably to a rejection of the practice. The famous verse in Timothy seems to apply more to the question of whether people who are enslaved ought to rebel violently than to the question of whether people who own slaves should continue to do so.

I think it's condoned; I don't think I could make a coherent case for promotion or opposition, so I guess that's neutral.

BioBeing · 12-07-2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

I think it's condoned; I don't think I could make a coherent case for promotion or opposition, so I guess that's neutral.

If Jesus was going to be against it, don't you think he would have come right out and said it? Instead of being "neutral". I think it was simply an accepted part of culture back then, and wasn't questioned.

If the OT is in favour (and it is), and Jesus is merely "neutral" (

), then on balance one must say that the Bible is pro-slavery.

BioBeing · 12-07-2006, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

The famous verse in Timothy seems to apply more to the question of whether people who are enslaved ought to rebel violently than to the question of whether people who own slaves should continue to do so.

This one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 6

6:1Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Surely you mean something else?

Johnny Skeptic · 12-07-2006, 08:18 AM

I started a similar thread at the BC&H Forum at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...59#post3986459. So far, all posts have agreed that the Bible promotes slavery.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. That is a clear endorsement of slavery. In the NIV, Exodus 21:20-21 say "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." The Old Testament treatment of slaves was grossly immoral and unfair. The New Testament's failure to clearly oppose slavery is an example of gross negligence.

BioBeing · 12-07-2006, 08:27 AM

Similar?? Its the exact same! They need to be merged.

And "so far" all the posts means two posts. Woohoo for consensus!

ksen · 12-07-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

Please define "promote" because I have a feeling that you consider anything other than condemnation of slavery as "promotion."

Malachi151 · 12-07-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

The passage is slightly redeemed with verse 9, but not much, and obviously it still strongly supports slavery. Again, this is NT, there is even more support in the OT.

See: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...t=2&limit=none

Johnny Skeptic · 12-07-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Please define "promote" because I have a feeling that you consider anything other than condemnation of slavery as "promotion."

Ok, how about "does the Bible say that slavery is an acceptable practice?", and "would mankind have been much better off if the Bible clearly disapproved of slavery?"

In the Old Testament, God order the death penalty for a Jew who killed Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. That was immoral and unfair.

OldYgg · 12-07-2006, 11:18 AM

It is clear that in present day society we have secular laws that indicate the slavery is wrong. In public perception (in general) the opinion of slavery is that it is not only wrong, but a despicable activity to have ever engaged.

It would seem that the bible itself when it references slavery holds that slavery is right in the implication that slaves should obey their masters and not despise them.

For something we hold despicable (in general society at present) it would seem that if it were ALWAYS despicable then it would be contravened in the bible.

Another point to this is that Christians are famous for going after atheists as being moral relativists. The problem is that Christians are as much or as little moral relativists as atheists. The proof is in attitudes toward slavery, which are not founded on Christian principles. They are clearly societal in nature, clearly anti-slavery has its founding in the Enlightenment and without exception if you are a Christian and you answer that slavery is wrong you have a problem not only with the bible, but the some of the venerated founders of our country.

Of course, you could side with the bible and some of the founders of our country and say slavery is not wrong. It is in fact still practiced in the present day and some of it is practiced in the USA. You cannot go after these people on a biblical basis as at the least the bible contradicts itself ("Do onto other as you would have done to you." and the few quotes on how slavery ain't so bad.

Another problem for Christians is if they use the bible to go after homosexuality (with only a single line to use as evidence) then there is certainly more evidence in the bible for slavery than there is against homosexuality.

Old Ygg

12-07-2006, 05:57 AM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Does the Bible promote or oppose slavery, or is it neutral? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

12-07-2006, 08:18 AM	#5
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Does the Bible promote or oppose slavery, or is it neutral? I started a similar thread at the BC&H Forum at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...59#post3986459. So far, all posts have agreed that the Bible promotes slavery. In the Old Testament, God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. That is a clear endorsement of slavery. In the NIV, Exodus 21:20-21 say "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." The Old Testament treatment of slaves was grossly immoral and unfair. The New Testament's failure to clearly oppose slavery is an example of gross negligence.

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12-07-2006, 06:47 AM	#2
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I would say that the OT clearly condones (but limits in some ways) the practice of slavery. In the NT, it is still condoned, but some of the principles taught seem to lead inexorably to a rejection of the practice. The famous verse in Timothy seems to apply more to the question of whether people who are enslaved ought to rebel violently than to the question of whether people who own slaves should continue to do so. I think it's condoned; I don't think I could make a coherent case for promotion or opposition, so I guess that's neutral.

12-07-2006, 08:27 AM	#6
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Similar?? Its the exact same! They need to be merged. And "so far" all the posts means two posts. Woohoo for consensus!

12-07-2006, 11:18 AM	#10
OldYgg Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,107	It is clear that in present day society we have secular laws that indicate the slavery is wrong. In public perception (in general) the opinion of slavery is that it is not only wrong, but a despicable activity to have ever engaged. It would seem that the bible itself when it references slavery holds that slavery is right in the implication that slaves should obey their masters and not despise them. For something we hold despicable (in general society at present) it would seem that if it were ALWAYS despicable then it would be contravened in the bible. Another point to this is that Christians are famous for going after atheists as being moral relativists. The problem is that Christians are as much or as little moral relativists as atheists. The proof is in attitudes toward slavery, which are not founded on Christian principles. They are clearly societal in nature, clearly anti-slavery has its founding in the Enlightenment and without exception if you are a Christian and you answer that slavery is wrong you have a problem not only with the bible, but the some of the venerated founders of our country. Of course, you could side with the bible and some of the founders of our country and say slavery is not wrong. It is in fact still practiced in the present day and some of it is practiced in the USA. You cannot go after these people on a biblical basis as at the least the bible contradicts itself ("Do onto other as you would have done to you." and the few quotes on how slavery ain't so bad. Another problem for Christians is if they use the bible to go after homosexuality (with only a single line to use as evidence) then there is certainly more evidence in the bible for slavery than there is against homosexuality. Old Ygg

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