Jack the Bodiless

Helpmabob:
If the author didn't know that he was "prophesying": then there is no "prophecy". At best, you're left with later apologists trawling through the OT for verses that seem vaguely reminiscent of their conception of Jesus. There is nothing remotely "miraculous" about this.
Yes, it CAN reasonably be denied. Isaiah is described as saying things about the Suffering Servant which rule out Jesus: you choose to ignore this completely.

Also, even if Isaiah 53:11-12 is excised from its context and considered to be "prophetic" of Jesus: it would suffer from a lack of verifiable fulfillment. We cannot determine that Jesus actually DID "see the light of life and be satisfied", or that he actually DID "justify many, and bear their iniquities": these are merely Christian beliefs about Jesus.
Farrell Till explains this in Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled (scroll down to the heading "Jesus Christ: Stunt Rider" about a third of the way down).
Presumably you have no hesitation in dismissing the myths of other religions as "made-up", yes? But, in the case of the Bible (and especially the Gospel of Matthew), we have plenty of evidence of this: Matthew doesn't hesitate to blatantly rip OT verses out of context to create bogus "prophecies" which he then writes "fulfillments" for (including the "Emmanuel Prophecy", the "Massacre of the Innocents Prophecy", the "Out of Egypt Prophecy" etc).
No, again we have a correlation with Christian beliefs about Jesus.
Indeed it is! For centuries, there was no place for this magnificent planet in Hebrew cosmology. And it's a reminder that there is STILL no place in YEC cosmology for any object in our Galaxy which is more than 6000 lightyears distant, or for ANY other galaxy at all.

Johnny Skeptic

It is not a possibility that any being with sufficient power, whether he is good or evil, is easily able to reveal OR conceal his true intentions according to his wishes, it is a fact. Similarly, any animal with sufficient anatomy is easily able to run 60 miles per hour. The key word is “sufficient”. If good and evil supernatural beings exist, we do not know which ones have which attributes. We are but mere humans.

If you mean that the being who inspired the writing of the Bible can predict the future, so what? Any being with sufficient power, whether good or evil, is easily able to predict the future. The task at hand is for you to reasonably prove that the being who supposedly inspired the writing of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and that he has revealed his true intentions.

It is interesting that you know so much about the attributes of good and evil supernatural beings. That is pretty impressive for a mere human being. 1 Corinthians 13:12 says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I guess that does not apply to you.

Amaleq13

Here's my guess:

P1 Saturn is beautiful.
P2 Beauty cannot occur naturally but must be intentionally created.
C A creator of Saturn's beauty must exist.


However P2 is phrased, it will undoubtedly be as subjective as it is circular.

Hedshaker

Awe, you just killed the Hollywood magic. Reading Helpmbob's posts is like watching 2000 episodes of Lost, where every episode advances the mysitique a little but nothing is actually revealed, lest the game is up.

Damn you

Helpmabob

Hi Sven - We agree Saturn is nice. But do you say that Saturn was created by the accumulation of dust over time, whilst indeed denying that God was in charge?Do you know? If we work backwards, assuming C = God exists and created Saturn, then it is also fair to assume that he created us. If God created us, He ultimately gave us the ability to create and understand logic flowcharts. If God did this, then we should not insist that God be encompassed by the charts Himself, so these charts could never truly conclude that God exists. Either God doesn’t exist, or the logic chart is not up to the task of proving God.

Clearly, we have a significant difference of opinion. Prophecy comes from God or it is not worthwhile. Although men wrote the words, God is the architect. I want to listen to the prophecy of God, not man.I think you confuse ‘not see how it applies to Jesus either’ and ‘ignore’. It is not necessary for every part of prophecy in Isaiah 53 to be exactly and physically attributable to Jesus. You are not being reasonable - it is still prophecy.These beliefs can be justified. An angel of the Lord appeared after Jesus resurrection like lightening and as white as snow. Jesus in His life healed men with the words: ‘your sins are forgiven’ and still now many experience a lifting of the burden of sin’s punishment from their shoulders.Such as? A lot of things happened that other religions follow and celebrate.[QUOTE]No, again [Zechariah 9:9] we have a correlation with Christian beliefs about Jesus.[QUOTE]It happened. It wasn’t an imaginary donkey, it was one of those flesh and blood ones. Christ really rode it and the whole ambience of that special day was just as was foretold and recorded through Zechariah. To deny this you need to be implying that there is something underhand afoot.

Try reading the Bible – it’s all there.So do you think there is someone/thing in charge? Who do you think it is? I’ve told you who I think it is plenty of times. I’m interested to know if you have found a better way. My task is to speak/write of what I have discovered, not to prove (as no-one can).Yes. This is the very reason that I can’t answer all questions about God. I don’t know God fully and perfectly. Nor do I love Him with all my heart mind and soul. Only after death, and because I have believed in life then I will see and love as I should.

Johnny Skeptic

If a God created the universe, he would easily be able to conceal OR reveal his true intentions according to his own wishes. If he wished to conceal his true intentions, it would not be possible for anyone to know about it one way or the other. One of the perks of being a God is that you can accomplish whatever you want to accomplish. If the creator of the universe wishes to reveal his true intentions to humans, he might do so after they die, and he might not be the God of the Bible. The creator of the universe is not under any obligation to reveal himself to humans in this life. The God of the Bible obviously did not feel any obligation to reveal his specific existence and will to the hundreds of millions of people who died without knowing about his specific existence and will, which invites the question since God is apathetic about letting people know about his specific existence and will, why aren't you?

Psalms 19:1 says "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." The question is, which God?

Amaleq13

Knowing how planets form does not deny the existence of any magical beings but, more relevant to your claim, observing one such planet does not require the existence of any magical being.

Assuming one's conclusion is the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Following such flawed reasoning makes it impossible to know whether one's conclusion is actually correct and impossible to convince anyone else who values rational thought.

Jack the Bodiless

Helpmabob:
I do not share your opinion of what is "reasonable". If parts of Isaiah 53 happen to fit later Christian notions regarding Jesus, while other parts plainly do not: there is nothing "supernatural" about lifting out the parts you like and leaving the rest. Especially when many Christians have mistranslated the actual Hebrew words to try to "improve" on what it actually says (e.g. replacing "disease" with "grief" in 53:3-4 and 53:10).
You don't seem to understand what is meant by "verifiable fulfillment". There is no independent proof that "an angel of the Lord appeared after Jesus' resurrection like lightning and as white as snow". Nor is there independent proof that Jesus ever healed anybody. And, as an atheist, I am without sin...

Helpmabob

It may be because you're reasoning has gone awry at some stage.I have answered that one as it applies to myself. Now the trick is for you to answer it as you think it applies to yourself.

So we are agreed that there could well be a divine governor behind the creation of planets of such beauty and starts in the heaven that outnumber grains of sand on al the beaches of earth? It does not demand too much to say that He is capable of inspiring men to prophecy to meet His ends?That’s as may be, but I simply proved that flowcharts are of no use in showing that God exists. Maybe that’s why some people here idolise them.

I say the prophecy remains there – let’s agree to disagree there are plenty other instances to celebrate.What chance is there of us discussing prophetic aspects of passages from the Bible if you deny that Jesus healed people, rose from the dead, and also that you have sinned? The Bible is crystal clear about these things whereas the appreciation of prophecy requires more thought. If you deny the crystal clear, why concern yourself at all with the propheies?

Jack the Bodiless

And Greek myth is crystal clear about the existence of the Olympian pantheon. Yet presumably you have no difficulty in denying the existence of those gods?

What about the prophecies of Greek myth? It was prophesied that Oedipus would kill his own father and marry his own mother: and, lo, it came to pass! (...according to the story). Will you accept this as evidence of the validity of Greek myth?

If not: why not?